Some Questions On Brewing Cider

[dingo34]

Stupid me, I didn't do a reading before I put the yeast in!!

But, I did do readings on 3 of the 4.

The three 3 litre bottle
One came up at 1.070
One came up at 1.030
One came up at 1.050

I couldn't do a reading of the cloudy apple juice because the bottle was too small, the meter was hitting the bottom of the bottle

I tell you what though, they are bubbling away all right. The two that did not form frothy bubbles on top are still bubbling away madly. They just look very clean.
Just on the frothy bubbles, with the two that did froth up, most of the froth has gone and there's basically sticky or sludgy type residue...

Now, let me see if I am reading you right...even though they have only been brewing for a couple of days, if I was to keep them in the same bottle, put the lids on, put them in the fridge door, then I just wait for them to go hard?

For my next load of batches, I will brew some on the heat pad, and some not, just to see the difference. I've still got some yeast left, it should still be ok after two days in the fridge (I didn't vaccum seal it though )

 

[KudaPucat]

Personally I don't like the possibility of a lid popping off, cracking, mess from bottle bursting (or the dange that comes if done in glass) So I would not do it that way.
An alternative is to let it ferment out dry, then add a measured amound of sugar and seal it up. This will stop disaster, and also give an appropriate amount of fizz.
Too much fizz will alter the taste of the drink significantly.
I also find there's a lot less care needed when doing it this way, and you can store them for months, rather than having to drink it immediately, and cidre does get a lot better - definitely aromatically - after 9 to 12 months.
YMMV though so do as you see fit, the method described will certainly work, it's just less controlled than I would like.

If you want a sweet cidre, you can use a yeast with low tolerance, and let it fully ferment with excess sugar. To carbonate, brew it in a keg with a pressure regulator. then get it VERY cold (0C will do) and bottle, this will save most of the CO2 from escaping.

 

[dingo34]

Personally I don't like the possibility of a lid popping off, cracking, mess from bottle bursting (or the dange that comes if done in glass) So I would not do it that way.
An alternative is to let it ferment out dry, then add a measured amound of sugar and seal it up. This will stop disaster, and also give an appropriate amount of fizz.
Too much fizz will alter the taste of the drink significantly.
I also find there's a lot less care needed when doing it this way, and you can store them for months, rather than having to drink it immediately, and cidre does get a lot better - definitely aromatically - after 9 to 12 months.
YMMV though so do as you see fit, the method described will certainly work, it's just less controlled than I would like.

If you want a sweet cidre, you can use a yeast with low tolerance, and let it fully ferment with excess sugar. To carbonate, brew it in a keg with a pressure regulator. then get it VERY cold (0C will do) and bottle, this will save most of the CO2 from escaping.

So what you are saying is that when the bottle gets hard, it needs to be drunk quite quickly then to prevent explosion?

 

[pk.sax]

I'll be fair here...

Once I have figured out a combination I want to keep making AND storing I don't make it in the bottle anymore, I put it in a demijohn (4 Ltrs in a 5 Ltr demijohn) and ferment with an airlock or clingwrap/rubberband. Subsequently bottle as normal with a measured amount of juice added back.

wrt being dangerous with lids popping etc... if you refrigerate as suggested, it will be slow enough to be monitored once a day/2 days and be OK. Good part is you taste it as it ages through the week or so it takes to drink it. Letting it ferment dry and then carbonating you will only get one type of cider - ultra dry.

I like to steer clear of artificial sweeteners. So, just retarding it with cold is my fav method, but I won't do it in glass ever, those juice bottles are strong enough though, esp with the big grippy caps.

There are good methods of stopping a ferment midstream, like the low tolerance yeast you mention Kuda, everything involves extra equipment though.

One thing that I also avoid doing with cider that I'm trialling out is oxidation from bottling etc. Drink it fresh from the fermenter bottle Once you get the ferment schedule etc down pat you can go for a bigger batch and work out the changes you will need to make for a bottled version.

Me, I'd just keep making the in the bottle cider out of that normal heat treated juice off the shelf. Every so often I make some with cloudy juice that I carefully bottle and let age (buy them when its a 2 for $4 sale or something). Those plastic bottles are good for short term storage and thats exactly how I use them. I won't leave them un-refrigerated though.

PS: you will NOT get clear cider brewing and dispensing from the bottle itself. If thats what you want you are most likely going to cold condition and separate off the yeast / filter and carbonate in a second vessel. Personal choice, I like mine cloudy.

 

[pk.sax]

So what you are saying is that when the bottle gets hard, it needs to be drunk quite quickly then to prevent explosion?

haha... when you take a drink out of it, it will let go of the excess pressure. Cap it and the slow continuous fermentation will carbonate it back up until the next time you open it.

I give it the hard bottle test, if the bottle has gone hard in the fridge I pour myself a drink

 

[KudaPucat]

I concur, however I'm too lazy and don't have enough fridge room. So I invested in some gear so I can 'set and forget'
I am about to buy a chest freezer for my kegs so that they can actually be used as kegs, and so I can use you cold halting method to retain sweetness without the high alcohol levels, and still retain the set and forget.
I'm yet to buy CO2 or Argon gear though. That'll have to wait.

 

[manticle]

* Make sure you dunk it in boiling water beforehand to kill any bugs.

You're not talking about a hydrometer are you? Thin glass tube containing lead balls?

I can tell you from personal experience that hydrometers do not benefit in any way, shape or form from contact with boiling water and I hope I've misunderstood.

 

[Camo1234]

OK guys, I am going to give some ciders a go over the next few weeks, this thread seems to be the happening Cider thread over the last week so thought I would add my intentions on here as well.

I have three spare cubes at the moment (CB FWK Cubes!) so am planning on putting down 3 different 10ltr batches to try some different blends. I have read that Cider gets much, much better with age so the ferment and serve in the same bottle idea isnt what I am after as I want to bottle all these and store for a while.

So I am going to come up with 3 different juice combinations over the weekend but my questions are the following:

1) I have got some of the Craft Brewer Cider Yeast on its way. How much of the dried yeast would you recommend for each 10 ltr batch?

2) I have also ordered some yeast nutrient from Craft Brewer Anyone have any advice on how much to add per batch?

3) I have read that people have used Lactose to sweeten their ciders so I am going to add some Lactose to 2 of the batches and leave the third to be a dry batch.. I read somewhere that someone added 500g to a 20ltr batch would 250g be fine for each of the 10 ltr batches?

4) Bottling If I leave the batches to ferment right out, will it be safe to bottle in glass or would it be best to go PET? Also for carbonation can I bulk prime in the same way as I do for beer? Ie same dosage of dex?


Cheers guys... Appreciate any advice you can give or any other tips you may have!

Camo.

 

[dingo34]

So far, it's been a few days, I'm thinking of doing some straight in the fridge without adding any sugar, and some with a little bit of sugar, then waiting a bit before putting in the fridge. But I will do all of them in the same bottles as the juice came in.

Practical Fool, I have noticed the cloudiness of all my juices, but that doesn't bother me, I can drink it cloudy or not, i just want it to taste good

I do have another question, what do you mean when you say 'when it has fermented dry'?

Tanga,
I checked out the Oztops website...they look cool...it says to make sure the juice has no preservatives, but what other names can they come by...for example, is food acid330, vitamin (300), or flavour 150d any of these preservatives?

As I have mentioned before, two of my juices did not froth up, where as the other two did, one has settled, while the other (the cloudy juice) is still got a bit of froth...what does it mean if the other two have not frothed at all (bear in mind though they are bubbling away quite a lot though is if they are like carbonated soft drink once you open the lid)?

cheers
dingo

 

[seamad]

fermented dry is fermented to completion, I have got to 998 with some ciders. this produces a very dry cider unlike commercial dry ciders
cheers
sean

 

[Tanga]

You're not talking about a hydrometer are you? Thin glass tube containing lead balls?

I can tell you from personal experience that hydrometers do not benefit in any way, shape or form from contact with boiling water and I hope I've misunderstood.

I've never had any problems, but you may be right. So then he should just make sure it's clean.

OK guys, I am going to give some ciders a go over the next few weeks, this thread seems to be the happening Cider thread over the last week so thought I would add my intentions on here as well.

I have three spare cubes at t :icon_vomit: he moment (CB FWK Cubes!) so am planning on putting down 3 different 10ltr batches to try some different blends…. I have read that Cider gets much, much better with age so the ferment and serve in the same bottle idea isn’t what I am after as I want to bottle all these and store for a while.

So I am going to come up with 3 different juice combinations over the weekend but my questions are the following:

1) I have got some of the Craft Brewer Cider Yeast on its way. How much of the dried yeast would you recommend for each 10 ltr batch?

About 5-6 grams. But if you want to divide the yeast for a full batch (usually 12g dry) into 1/3s then that should be OK.

2) I have also ordered some yeast nutrient from Craft Brewer… Anyone have any advice on how much to add per batch?

No idea, I don't usually use it, but again do your calculations and use slightly less than half the amount recommended for a full fermenter. You can probably get away with 1/3 of a full dose if that's the size of the packets. I haven't had a stuck ferment yet and I never use nutrient.

3) I have read that people have used Lactose to sweeten their ciders so I am going to add some Lactose to 2 of the batches and leave the third to be a dry batch….. I read somewhere that someone added 500g to a 20ltr batch… would 250g be fine for each of the 10 ltr batches?

4) Bottling – If I leave the batches to ferment right out, will it be safe to bottle in glass or would it be best to go PET? Also for carbonation can I bulk prime in the same way as I do for beer? Ie same dosage of dex?

No problems bottling into glass. Cider bottles are no more likely to explode than beer. Just test the FG the same way you would for beer, but expect a lower FG. About 0 (same as for water) when using juice. Bulk priming works the same way, add the same amount as for one.of the spritzier beers.

Cheers guys... Appreciate any advice you can give or any other tips you may have!

Camo.

Welcome to the non-beer section. Hopefully one of the quality cider guys pops back in here to convert you to real juice brewing, but until then this is fun and easy. Good-luck!

 

[manticle]

I've never had any problems, but you may be right. So then he should just make sure it's clean.

My first ever post on this forum: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...ic=26165&hl=

Just either spray with starsan or better still buy a sample tube.

 

[KudaPucat]

I dunk mine in a Sodium Metabisulphate solution. I rinse all my gear in the same thing.

The most common preservative used in juices is Sodium Metabisulphate. (or maybe Potassium, but practically they're the same thing)
To find a preservative fee juice look for "No added preservatives" in juice with no preservatives, the marketing dept thinks it's a great idea to make certain you know, so it's pretty easy like that.

If your juices aren't foaming, this could be one of MANY things.
Factors that reduce foaming with no ill effect:

Yeast
Temperature
Type of juice
Sugar types
Sugar concentration
Pressure
Surface tension
Speed of ferment
Fermentation already concluded/slowed

factors that reduce foaming with ill effect:

preservative.
your yeast are dead

Law of averages says your fine. If you're worried take a hydrometer sample. if you see it dropping, you're all good.
If you don't have a hydrometer, whack your bottle on the kitchen scales. You should see the weight decreasing over time.

 

[Tanga]

Not disagreeing that it's potentially bad. I must have been lucky. I've lost 3 hydrometers to gravity and none to the expansion of hot gases.

Dingo old mate,
Investing in one of the above mentioned hydrometers is the best thing you can do if you want to start brewing big batches or repeating results. If you just want to play with small batches then Oztops are a safety release valve for keeping the lid on and pressure in the bottle (makes the cider ferment faster). The two yeasts provided - 1118 (blue) and d47 (orange) are pretty forgiving of temperature fluctuations.

The froth on top of the brew (called the krausen) doesn't really tell you how far the ferment has come. But if you get good bubbles for 4 or 5 days then you are ready to start refrigerating and tasting once a day until you like the flavour. If you measure the gravity at this stage with a hydrometer then we can more easily make a recipe for a larger brew.

Most preservative-free juice will say it is preservative-free on the bottle. None of what you mentioned will be a problem. No krausen (but bubbles) like you're seeing doesn't mean the juice won't ferment.

 

[dingo34]

Not disagreeing that it's potentially bad. I must have been lucky. I've lost 3 hydrometers to gravity and none to the expansion of hot gases.

Dingo old mate,
Investing in one of the above mentioned hydrometers is the best thing you can do if you want to start brewing big batches or repeating results. If you just want to play with small batches then Oztops are a safety release valve for keeping the lid on and pressure in the bottle (makes the cider ferment faster). The two yeasts provided - 1118 (blue) and d47 (orange) are pretty forgiving of temperature fluctuations.

The froth on top of the brew (called the krausen) doesn't really tell you how far the ferment has come. But if you get good bubbles for 4 or 5 days then you are ready to start refrigerating and tasting once a day until you like the flavour. If you measure the gravity at this stage with a hydrometer then we can more easily make a recipe for a larger brew.

Most preservative-free juice will say it is preservative-free on the bottle. None of what you mentioned will be a problem. No krausen (but bubbles) like you're seeing doesn't mean the juice won't ferment.

Hi Tanga,
I do have a hydrometer, actually posted up the readings from yesterday in this thread. It seems I have to wait more though, the readings are still very high. As I started with the bottles on the heatpad, I have decided to leave them there until it finishes, but the next batch of bottles I buy I will not use the heatpad. I did a search on the yeast I am using CL23 and it can go as low as 8C, so I think I should be safe without the heatpad.

I finally got round to reading other posts on cider making in this forum, been doing it for the last two hours and have learned a lot. Everyone seems to have their own ways of doing things, but essentially, I think the idea is to get the reading down to as close to 1.000 as possible, and then place lid on and put in fridge. It seems as though it should take at least a week if not two to get to the fridging stage, but my only concern is the fact that it is on a heatpad, whether it will happen a lot quicker.

All things said and done, I want the cider to have at least 4-5% alcohol, if not a bit more, I'm not too concerned if it's not too carbonated or not, though a few bubbles would be better than none. As for sweetness, I'll experiment with some of the stuff I have read, plus your idea about pear juice etc. But for the first batch, yeah, I'm really wanting to make sure I get the 'process' right by way of fermenting and then fridging and then drinking

Cheers
Dingo

 

[Tanga]

Don't forget that last step (the drinking). It's very important. =p

Oops, yeah, I missed your post with the readings. Sorry. Yeah, I think about 1030 is the stage you want to start tasting. When you find the 'sweet-spot' we can start guestimating how much lactose to add to a brew for you.

The reason I suggest this way (you've probably read about it already) is that, unless you're going to keg it's impossible (well, very difficult, especially with bought juice) to only partially ferment the natural fruit sugars (fructose and glucose) in juice. So your best bet is to replace some of those sugars with lactose (another sugar) which doesn't ferment (so is safe to leave in the brew). This way you can bottle your brew, and just the right amount of fermentable sugar for bubbles and have a sweet result.

 

[dingo34]

Don't forget that last step (the drinking). It's very important. =p

Oops, yeah, I missed your post with the readings. Sorry. Yeah, I think about 1030 is the stage you want to start tasting. When you find the 'sweet-spot' we can start guestimating how much lactose to add to a brew for you.

The reason I suggest this way (you've probably read about it already) is that, unless you're going to keg it's impossible (well, very difficult, especially with bought juice) to only partially ferment the natural fruit sugars (fructose and glucose) in juice. So your best bet is to replace some of those sugars with lactose (another sugar) which doesn't ferment (so is safe to leave in the brew). This way you can bottle your brew, and just the right amount of fermentable sugar for bubbles and have a sweet result.

Yeah, I actually quite like the idea of just using the bottles. It seems real easy, and if I can get something tasting half decent, I'll continue to use it. I think one of the primary reasons I kept start/stopping brewing in large quantities was all the cleaning involved.

As for sweetness, I noticed several options, and you first off said Pear Juice in the initial stage (1/3 to 2/3)...which one do you get? I was in Coles today and could only find a 1litre Glass jar of it for almost $5.

What about Honey?

So do you add the lactose at the 2nd stage, when you put it in the fridge?

 

[dingo34]

My simple suggestion if carbonating in the bottle itself (in the fridge door) - wait for the krausen to die off, i.e. The constant layer of foam maintained by the ferment on top of it to die out to a thinnish layer. Then I say it's ready to cap and stick in fridge door. Remember, fridge doors are designed so that things like butter kept in the door doesn't harden and rather stays soft. My door holds a temp of 10 degrees in the fermenting bottle while the rest of the fridge is pretty cold. Its just about knowing what your fridge is naturally capable of. What works really well for one person might just not work for another. Still, no point in blindly being scared off by a million things said on the Internet that aren't backed up by good reason.

So, whack it in the fridge when the active part of fermentation is over and there would sure be enough sugar left in there to carbonate it without any extra. Of course, you can add more if you really want/need to.
I give it the hard bottle test, if the bottle has gone hard in the fridge I pour myself a drink

PS: a cider ferments out really dry if you let it. 1010 is really too much. You should be looking at 1.000 - 1.002 fully fermented based on what juice. If it's a 1.010 you can safely cap it And it will carbonate enough without needing more sugar.

I just tried out the fridge door with a themometer and it's at 3C Yikes! So I then tested the shelf, again 3C. Looks like my fridge door is not warmer BUGGER!

 

[dingo34]

Ok, so I decided to get down and dirty...

I went to Coles and bought the same batches of Juice again (but they were out of the Cloudy; bugger!)

I took some out of each and did a hydrometer test on all of them for the OG

Coles Home Brand Apple Juice 1042
Coles Home Brand Apple & BlackCurrent 1044
Just Juice Apple Juice 1046

Now, I then tested all the ones I have been fermenting since tuesday night.

But I decided to pour a little into the test tube to do the reading rather than straight into the bottle

Coles Home Brand Apple Juice 1006 (OG 1042)
Coles Home Brand Apple & BlackCurrent 1022 (OG 1044)
Just Juice Apple Juice 1006 (OG 1046)
Cloudy 1022

It's funny because the ones that did not froth up are the ones that have done the most as per hydro readings.

I decided to then drink each of the test samples and I could definitely taste more sweetness in the ones reading 1022 than to those reading 1006. (hooly dooly feeling it a bit already kung pow!)

Is anyone surprised at how quick the two have gone from 1042-6 to 1006 in only 3 days?

Oh, and doing the OG --> FG formula, does that mean my two quickest brews are already at almost 5%?

 

[Tanga]

Yeah, I actually quite like the idea of just using the bottles. It seems real easy, and if I can get something tasting half decent, I'll continue to use it. I think one of the primary reasons I kept start/stopping brewing in large quantities was all the cleaning involved.

As for sweetness, I noticed several options, and you first off said Pear Juice in the initial stage (1/3 to 2/3)...which one do you get? I was in Coles today and could only find a 1litre Glass jar of it for almost $5.

What about Honey?

So do you add the lactose at the 2nd stage, when you put it in the fridge?

Honey will ferment out also, so I don't recommend using that.

You add the lactose at the beginning (try 40g in a 2L bottle of juice, or 50g in 2.4L bottle (minus the cup of juice you take out), in the next batch you can add/subtract to your taste. I bought homebrand 50/50 apple/pear juice - $3 for 3L and used equal amounts of it and apple juice in my 5L demijohn (from memory - I think that's what I did - made up to 25% anyway). So your best bet will be to keep an eye out for the apple and pear juice and make it up in that bottle. Easy, and should be about the right sweetness (mine was still a little dry).

EDIT: Yeah, that's pretty quick. They must have been warm. Got any sulphur flavours? Try the blackcurrent when it's done. It is like pear in that it will still taste a little sweet even when it's done. I can't remember which - either golden circle, or just juice, but one of the black current and apple juices is much higher than all the other ones. I recommend that. It makes a pinker, sweeter (not overly by any means) cider.