Solventy taste in Pale Ale?

[gazeboar]

I am so pissed. I thought my all grain Pale Ale was on track, I had tasted it on day four after a vigorous ferment at 18 degrees, and it was tasting like a pale ale... although obviously needing some conditioning. After day ten I decided to move it to a secondary (I have seen all the debates about not doing this/personal preferences etc and this isn't the issue), and after tasting it again (before I racked it off the trub), it has an astringent taste. Not an alcohol taste, just a sharp taste, almost like a faint acetone smell. Paint thinner comes to mind, it is quite a tart and sharp flavour.

What an earth have I done to get this flavour? :blink:

It's not high fermentation temps. My yeast was healthy (US-05), I pitched properly and aerated the wort. I have read that PVC tubing can contribute to this, but I used food grade tubing to rack from my kettle for this beer and a porter, and the porter is fine. I doubt it is my sanitation, if anything I was more scrupulous with the Pale than I was my other beer. The only other thing that I have read which can contribute to this is oxidisation. I didn't take the lid off the entire time during fermentation. I removed the airlock once and replaced it without water after the initial fermentation was done (I was going by hydrometer so didn't think airlock was neccesary).

I did aerate the wort fairly well on my knee prior to pitching. Is there such a thing as over aerating wort? I thought this was neccesary for the yeast?

Again, I used the same technique for this one as I did my porter, and it's only this pale which has problems. I didn't think I overdid it, but perhaps I did. If so there's a fine bloody line, and it's frustrating as hell.

Possible causes?

Final thing, once I can be sure what this may be from, is there anything I can do about it? Should i let this condition for a while at 18 degrees? Is it an infection as such or do I have unwanted compounds in my beer which can be scrubbed out with cold conditioning? Is it back to the drawing board?

Frustratingly,

Gazeboar

 

[gazeboar]

BUMP. I just found this.

"Astringency can be caused by many different factors. Polyphenols or tannins are the
number one cause of such flavors. Tannins are found in the skins or husks of the
grain as well as in the skin of fruit. Steeping grain for too long or grain that has been
excessively milled or crushed can release tannins. When mashing, if the pH exceeds
5.2 – 5.6, astringent flavors can be produced. Over-hopping can also lend a hand in
creating astringent qualities.:

Now, I'm certain I didn't steep for too long. I steeped for 60 plus 15 or so mashout. BUT I did mill the grains twice at the local homebrew store. They did seem to be perhaps crushed more so than desirable. I had never milled before, and because I had read that BIABers can get good efficiency if the grains are cracked twice, I did that. Was this the fatal flaw? If so, that is an unbelievably irritating factor, after everything I went through, three hours of messing around and $50 later. The mill seemed to crack the grain fairly fine generally, and I wasn't sure if I needed to change the settings to get a more coarse grist. If this is the cause, I had no idea that such a fine detail could potentially ruin an entire batch.

I did squeeze the bag, so if there were tannins from the grains they would have definitely been in the beer.

And because it was tasting fine after day four, I wondered why there was such a major turn around from day four to day ten.

The porter I made had grains milled on the exact same settings. But because it's a bigger beer (flavour, malt wise), are these tannins hidden? (Supposing this is the actual reason for this bad flavour). There's no semblance of this same astringency in this one, which i'm about ready to cold chill for a week.


Thoughts?

 

[wbosher]

I mash for 90 minutes usually, and squeeze the he'll out of the bag, I think you'll find this won't cause any problems.

I have found a very unpleasant taste in most of my AG brews for the first three weeks or so in the bottles, but by week four it's gone andthebeeris lovely. Maybe just give it some more time.

 

[yum beer]

" I didn't take the lid off the entire time during fermentation. I removed the airlock once and replaced it without water after the initial fermentation was done (I was going by hydrometer so didn't think airlock was neccesary)."



I read that to say your fermenter sat with no airlock whilst not producing co2, if so theres your problem....oxidation and/or infection without a doubt.

 

[Aydos]

Pretty sure he meant that he took it out breifly while he topped it up with water and then replaced.

 

[pommiebloke]

Relax. Get it bottled/kegged and give it time.

Sounds like you have covered any sanitation/oxidation problems. Give it a few weeks in the bottle and I bet the "off" flavour disappears.

 

[Spiesy]

What is in your Pale Ale? Recipe?

I noticed in a particular brew that I repeated that I would get a solvent-like smell (more so than taste) during fermentation - but that disappeared upon chilling, kegging, carbing and serving...

 

[NewtownClown]

Acetobacter? Fruit fly?

But I am confused by your descriptors; astringent, solventy, acetone, paint thinner, tart & sharp (sour?), these are all, except for "solventy, acetone, paint thinner", all quite different. Would you also throw vinegar in there?

Removing the airlock then replacing without water because primary fermentation was complete? Why?

 

[stux]

Lots of causes.

My first BIAB had a solventy undertone. Think it was due to an insipid boil. Burner upgrade fixed it.

But if it came in after racking then I suspect you've picked up an infection

 

[Acasta]

I had a similar issue a few months back with an ESB I made. I made a thread about it and posted some of my research as well as other's opinions in there. Hope it helps.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/67498-acetone-off-flavour/

 

[gazeboar]

Thanks for all your helpful comments. After leaving it overnight the negative taste has dissipated somewhat. Still isn't there yet, but I'm hoping once I crash it it is going to be okay. Had seriously thought there was something to worry about.

Lots of causes.

My first BIAB had a solventy undertone. Think it was due to an insipid boil. Burner upgrade fixed it.

But if it came in after racking then I suspect you've picked up an infection

It didn't happen after racking, prior to racking. My Birko comes to a reasonable boil, but I think I might start topping up for 90 minute boils, even if it is to ensure there's no DMS.

" I didn't take the lid off the entire time during fermentation. I removed the airlock once and replaced it without water after the initial fermentation was done (I was going by hydrometer so didn't think airlock was neccesary)."



I read that to say your fermenter sat with no airlock whilst not producing co2, if so theres your problem....oxidation and/or infection without a doubt.

Well here's the thing. I may possibly sound like an illogical idiot here, but I was under the assumption that the C02 would escape the airlock even if there was no water in it. I have heard people saying to ditch the airlock and use gladwrap/a band, saying that C02 will still escape it because it's like a permeable membrane. I didn't think this was any different. I am honest enough to admit this might be a habitual thing that I do that makes no sense. I fill the airlock with sanitised water like normal, and after fermentation is complete I replace the airlock without water to seal the hole (I once found a small fly in my fridge, so wanted to protect it). My only reason for doing this is so that I can taste the beer and I don't have to continually remove/replace the airlock. Is this pointless and or stupid? I've never gotten oxidisation issues from any beers and i've done this regularly.

Acetobacter? Fruit fly?

But I am confused by your descriptors; astringent, solventy, acetone, paint thinner, tart & sharp (sour?), these are all, except for "solventy, acetone, paint thinner", all quite different. Would you also throw vinegar in there?

Removing the airlock then replacing without water because primary fermentation was complete? Why?

Yes, vinegar too. And banana, and horse. No, seriously, to my taste I would have described it as above. Perhaps 'solventy' is the best way to describe it. I described it as tart also because it had a tart and 'lip puckering' mouthfeel to it, not particularly a tart flavour. Perhaps I was vague.

I had a similar issue a few months back with an ESB I made. I made a thread about it and posted some of my research as well as other's opinions in there. Hope it helps.
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/67498-acetone-off-flavour/

Thanks for this The general feedback was "The nail polish/acetone/vinyl type aroma you are getting is generally a wild yeast infection which produces too much ethyl acetate as a by product of fermentation.". I had a white very thin film around halfway down the side of my fermenter, but it's hard to tell (for me) if this is just the result of a vigourous krausen. I think it may be saved anyway.

Cheers.

 

[bum]

I fill the airlock with sanitised water like normal, and after fermentation is complete I replace the airlock without water to seal the hole (I once found a small fly in my fridge, so wanted to protect it). My only reason for doing this is so that I can taste the beer and I don't have to continually remove/replace the airlock. Is this pointless and or stupid? I've never gotten oxidisation issues from any beers and i've done this regularly.

I wouldn't worry about the beer oxidising in this way but what is to stop the small fly from crawling in through the dry air lock? I am assuming an S-type airlock here. The water isn't there for the CO2 getting out - it is to stop stuff getting in.

 

[sponge]

I think leave it in the keg for a week at fridge temps and come back to taste it.

Leaving it cold for a week does wonders to many a beer.

That, and replace the lid & airlock with gladwrap... that is more of just a personal/general tip though :beerbang:

 

[gazeboar]

I wouldn't worry about the beer oxidising in this way but what is to stop the small fly from crawling in through the dry air lock? I am assuming an S-type airlock here. The water isn't there for the CO2 getting out - it is to stop stuff getting in.

It's an S type with a small red cap. I have heard these red caps have better fruit fly protection than the blue caps?

 

[bum]

Ah, there you go then. I wouldn't worry about it. I'd still put the water in but that's me. Steady as she goes, Captain.

 

[stux]

When I was using air-locks, I got sikc of the bubbles reversing when ever I drew a sample.. and since it was so hard to get the airlock out...

I replaced my S airlocks with 2 piece airlocks

nice thing with a 2 piece is you just lift the top piece and it breaks the seal. Draw your sample... then put the top piece back in and its sealed again.

 

[gazeboar]

Pretty good idea :kooi:

 

[Spiesy]

When I was using air-locks, I got sikc of the bubbles reversing when ever I drew a sample.. and since it was so hard to get the airlock out...

I replaced my S airlocks with 2 piece airlocks

nice thing with a 2 piece is you just lift the top piece and it breaks the seal. Draw your sample... then put the top piece back in and its sealed again.

do they fit in the same size hole as the the "s" types?

 

[stux]

Not quite.

I drilled my holes bigger and used old coopers "top hat" style washers... but in the end... I then switch to a rubber bung with a hole in the middle. Means I can pull the bung out to dry hop, add hop tea... or even siphon out.

Merry little path you can walk too

Another nice thing with the 2 pieces is you can sanitize them

Now I use a blow-off tube from the rubber bung... because i'm filling my fermenters full (ie 60L in a 60L)

 

[jaypes]

I have had this. The off taste does dissipate with ageing/conditioning

I put it down to my garden hose that is now only used for cleaning up not filling my fermenter/kettle