Sanitization

[Florian]

I should get myself one of those post bags. Seems good value with a bottle of Starsan and lots of other goodies in it for $14 :lol:

 

[QldKev]

I should get myself one of those post bags. Seems good value with a bottle of Starsan and lots of other goodies in it for $14 :lol:

QldKev

 

[Yob]

Damn this has had some legs today.. was only a small question last time I looked.. at the risk of enraging anybody..

I got a bag of "Stericlean" with my starter kit from Aussie Brew Makers. It's a cleaner and sanitiser all in one

Who the hell told you that?

Its my understanding, and I get this understanding from Mr Charlie Tallie (sp?) and Dr Bamforth (courtesy of TBN) that a cleaner and sanitiser 'all in one' does not in fact exist. Ive been very happy, *ed in my brewery and with my time*, to separate those processes.

Striclean is a caustic cleaner, active ingredient Sodium Hydroxide AKA drain cleaner and paint stripper :blink:

also from back in 2007 on this productHERE

glad you were at least rinsing.. sounds like some nasty ****.

Peace Yo

 

[carniebrew]

Damn this has had some legs today.. was only a small question last time I looked.. at the risk of enraging anybody..

Who the hell told you that?

Its my understanding, and I get this understanding from Mr Charlie Tallie (sp?) and Dr Bamforth (courtesy of TBN) that a cleaner and sanitiser 'all in one' does not in fact exist. Ive been very happy, *ed in my brewery and with my time*, to separate those processes.

Striclean is a caustic cleaner, active ingredient Sodium Hydroxide AKA drain cleaner and paint stripper :blink:

I'm sure this discussion has happened on here before. This version of stericlean is basically soap and chlorine according to the Aussie Brew Maker guys. Not the caustic/sodium hydroxide cleaner. Here's the link: http://www.aussiebrewmakers.com.au/retail_...ogue/54600_item.

From that link: "Stericlean is suitable for washing and sterilising all equipment.". I was using it as per their instructions when I first started brewing, no gloves, getting it all over my hands, so it's obviously not dangerous.

Seems nobody else has ever heard of it, and nobody knows much about it, hence why i'm moving to sodium perc and starsan once i'm through it.

EDIT: Just found the other thread, when asked, aussie brew makers said "Stericlean does not contain any sodium, caustic soda or sodium hydroxide. Its main components are soap and chlorine"

And more from that thread, it contains Trisodium phosphate & Sodium dichloroisocyanurate.

Trisodium phosphate - is a cleaning agent, food additive, stain remover and degreaser....was at one time extensively used in formulations for a wide variety of consumer grade soaps and detergents, but ecological problems have largely ended that practice, at least in the western world. Substitutes are not as effective, but the raw chemical can be bought in bulk to add to other detergents

Sodium dichloroisocyanurate - is a chemical compound used as a disinfectant, biocide, industrial deodorant and detergent. It is found in some newer water purification tablets/filters. It is more efficient than formerly used halazone water disinfectant. Mechanism of action is the release of chlorine in low concentrations by constant rate

 

[thedragon]

At the risk of weighing into something personal....

I'll take my advice from Big Nath any day over the advice offered by a smart arse with a sharp tounge.

I'm glad that in my formative brewing years I wasn't offered the bad advice that seems to be freely handed out these days.

 

[GuyQLD]

EDIT: Just found the other thread, when asked, aussie brew makers said "Stericlean does not contain any sodium, caustic soda or sodium hydroxide. Its main components are soap and chlorine"

And more from that thread, it contains Trisodium phosphate & Sodium dichloroisocyanurate.

Trisodium phosphate - is a cleaning agent, food additive, stain remover and degreaser....was at one time extensively used in formulations for a wide variety of consumer grade soaps and detergents, but ecological problems have largely ended that practice, at least in the western world. Substitutes are not as effective, but the raw chemical can be bought in bulk to add to other detergents

Sodium dichloroisocyanurate - is a chemical compound used as a disinfectant, biocide, industrial deodorant and detergent. It is found in some newer water purification tablets/filters. It is more efficient than formerly used halazone water disinfectant. Mechanism of action is the release of chlorine in low concentrations by constant rate

For what it's worth Stericlean seems to be linked to a number of different products.

This MSDS for example.

http://www.surekleen.co.uk/pdfs/7541s_Sure...750_ml_MSDS.pdf

However the active ingredient in almost all iterations I found was Chlorine in low quantities. You might as well use an appropriately diluted chlorine bleach which in the appropriate dilution is considered a no rinse sanitiser (yes, even in commercial food preparation it's considered perfectly safe if prepared correctly)

Technically the only "all in one" that I know of is bleach. And most people will tell you how that goes.

Use the Stericlean on your toilet and go buy some Starsan.

 

[altstart]

Washing or cleaning and then sanitising are by definition two separate actions. From a personal point of view I would never incorparate the two into one. I use PBW as a cleaner followed by a thorough rinse with clean water and then Starsan as a no rinse sanitiser. This regime is used on all equipment without exception at every step of the AG process. All equipment taps and valves are stripped and cleaned every brew. Even with this level of care I still managed to lose a 100 litre brew in August this year to an infection.
Cheers Altstart

 

[manticle]

EDIT: Just found the other thread, when asked, aussie brew makers said "Stericlean does not contain any sodium, caustic soda or sodium hydroxide. Its main components are soap and chlorine"

That's a bit of a worry when their website suggests that the active ingredient is sodium hydroxide. http://www.aussiebrewer.com.au/index.php?p...rt&Itemid=3

However, apart from that, it is marketted as a cleaner AND sanitiser so maybe some users could back off sticking the boot into carnie.

Misinformation on this forum is not a good thing but neither is mob mentality or being an arsehole to noobs.

 

[KingKong]

:icon_offtopic: I don't want to derail this thread... :blink: :blink: :blink:

I have seen a few refer to 'using bleach properly' as a no rinse sanitiser. This is also contained in Palmer where a ratio of 4 ml of unscented bleach to 1 litre of water is suggested as an acceptable no rinse sanitiser with the condition the equipment is left to dry completely after contact with the solution.

Does anyone have an opinion on this ? Is there a brewer who can stick there hand up and say, yes I do this and have for a long time and have never had a problem ? Or conversely can say no I don't because this happened to me ???

I'm interested because for me, bleach is the most accessible, cheapest option. If the Starsan isn't far superior for a defined and explainable reason, I think Ill use the bleach.

 

[Yob]

If memory serves, a, bleach and vinegar solution mix will work, known to work, also known to possibly kill you if you mix it incorrectly, dunno about bleach by itself, thought it needed rinsing

Happy to be corrected

 

[carniebrew]

That's a bit of a worry when their website suggests that the active ingredient is sodium hydroxide. http://www.aussiebrewer.com.au/index.php?p...rt&Itemid=3

However, apart from that, it is marketted as a cleaner AND sanitiser so maybe some users could back off sticking the boot into carnie.

Misinformation on this forum is not a good thing but neither is mob mentality or being an arsehole to noobs.

Yeah that must be different stuff, my powder came from Aussie Brew Makers, not Aussie Brewer. And I got the stuff, along with instructions from those guys on how to use it, before I even knew this forum existed. You know, back when I thought Napisan was for nappies.

Can't blame a bloke for being given a product called "Stericlean" with instructions that say "Stericlean is suitable for washing and sterilising all equipment." and not thinking it should do exactly that. You'd reckon if they're lying they would have been found out long ago. But perhaps I'm being naive.

As I said in my original reply 4 pages ago, I am planning on moving to sodium perc and starsan, as its obviously considered 'best in class' by the vast majority. But it's worth noting that Stericlean has worked for me so far, even if there was an element of luck involved.

And thanks.

 

[pk.sax]

Heaps of peeps use bleach. I know some that do. Never picked a problem in their beer.

I dislike bleach. Don't like the smell and touch of it. The dg handling aspect of it.

I kept some bleach handy anyway because like any other anti-pathogenic treatment when one stuff fails, try a new thing. In fact, I'd suggest changing sanitisers every so often. Keep cycling. Sanitising is about dropping the risk to statistical insignificance, not 0. Every now nd then the outliers collect and need to be treated as part of the sample. Something else gets pushed out of the treatment target group. Keep that changing every now and then.

I've had had plastics taint my beer but never an infection! Fwiw, I'm far from anal in my cleaning and sanitising. Never takes me more than a minute to sanitise a fermenter. Bottles should get more attention.

Beer brewing is not the only thing in the world that uses sanitising processes.

 

[pk.sax]

...naive...

Absolutely

 

[manticle]

Can't blame a bloke for being given a product called "Stericlean" with instructions that say "Stericlean is suitable for washing and sterilising all equipment." and not thinking it should do exactly that.

And I don't. Also confusing when there is more than one product out there with the same name but supposedly different (vastly) formulae. Someone should sort that **** out.

And you're welcome.

 

[bignath]

sorry for more off topic.

Yes, he cleans his plastic bits in his bath but he also tips his cleaning solution into that bath, really not that much different from tipping it into a fermenter like you do or any old bucket that's been sitting in the garage for jonks like many others do.

I don't believe for one second Florian that you honestly don't think there's much of a difference between scattering brewing equipment into an empty bath which will be a germfest....and then adding your cleaning solution to pour over it, as opposed to cleaning out the fermenter which has previously been a sealed unit (to a point) and cleaning all your equipment in that much more controlled environment by soaking overnight in my cleaning solution.
I understand you're a highly experienced brewer so i have no issues holding my tongue here, as i respect your opinions, but this has me perplexed mate.

Given both our (cb's and mine) processes, i'll take the pepsi challenge with mine every day of the week.

Nothing fundamentally wrong with both of your processes, I'm sure that many agree that it's better to also use a no rinse sanitiser but you're both taking a calculated risk (maybe Carnie's is slightly higher) and as long as you both are aware of that then that's fine.

As you correctly stated in your full unedited by me post, i do in fact use a sanitiser - but only if i'm not using the fermenter again immediately.
Other than that, i don't see much point. Good beer has come out of the fermenter (infection minimised based on taste, flavour, visuals etc..), give it a good clean - overnight soak. Couple of hot rinses and she's good to go.
Of course, after several brews like this i will do a complete clean and sanitise process to restart the process again. I wouldn't just keep using a fermenter that has been cleaned but not sanitised indefinitely..
What's the difference from an infection based point of view from doing this compared to reusing an entire yeast cake by dumping a fresh wort right on top of a waiting 'cake?

 

[Florian]

sorry for more off topic.



I don't believe for one second Florian that you honestly don't think there's much of a difference between scattering brewing equipment into an empty bath which will be a germfest....and then adding your cleaning solution to pour over it, as opposed to cleaning out the fermenter which has previously been a sealed unit (to a point) and cleaning all your equipment in that much more controlled environment by soaking overnight in my cleaning solution.

You forgot that he also soaked his bits in his fermenter for 'at least an hour' before he put them into the bath, then tipped the cleaning solution over it. So the bits should be pretty clean from the start. I would trust anyone that would then put those clean bits into their bath that they would be fairly confident that their bath is fairly clean, maybe not as clean as a fermenter that has been soaked in napisan over night, but either cleaned after each bath or better cleaned right before the process, and certainly cleaner than the bucket from the garage that i'm sure many are using. I know I wouldn't have a problem doing this in our bath if it wasn't so uncomfortable kneeling on the floor, and in fact I have done similar in the laundry tub many times, although with starsan instead of cleaner and tap water.

Anyone who puts clean bits into a grimy dirty bath or laundry sink I would not hesitate calling a tool.

I understand you're a highly experienced brewer so i have no issues holding my tongue here, as i respect your opinions, but this has me perplexed mate.

Not more experienced than You I'd say, probably less considering you joined this forum years before I even thought about brewing beer. But thanks for the confidence nontheless. (now if I could only increase my freakin one star rating :lol: .Honestly though, had never noticed that star rating thingy until you pointed it out in this thread, and one star is better than zero, right? :unsure: )

Given both our (cb's and mine) processes, i'll take the pepsi challenge with mine every day of the week.



As you correctly stated in your full unedited by me post, i do in fact use a sanitiser - but only if i'm not using the fermenter again immediately.
Other than that, i don't see much point. Good beer has come out of the fermenter (infection minimised based on taste, flavour, visuals etc..), give it a good clean - overnight soak. Couple of hot rinses and she's good to go.
Of course, after several brews like this i will do a complete clean and sanitise process to restart the process again. I wouldn't just keep using a fermenter that has been cleaned but not sanitised indefinitely..
What's the difference from an infection based point of view from doing this compared to reusing an entire yeast cake by dumping a fresh wort right on top of a waiting 'cake?

I'd say the difference is that you have now rinsed this fermenter with tap water (possibly from an old filthy hose) which can in theory introduce all sorts of bacteria (even without the filthy hose) . To that respect, in theory, dumping on the yeast cake might even be more sanitary provided no nasties have been harbouring in your last brew, but in practice I dont think there will be a huge difference either way. It has been said many times before, brewing gear that has been cleaned properly but not sanitised will be much more sanitary than stuff thats not been cleaned (or badly cleaned) but only sanitised.

For what it's worth, I'm in the process of changing heaps of processes in my brewery that I always held as gospel (not necessarily sanitation related, I won't skimp on that one more than I do now). If they work out then It'll save me time and effort in the future, if they go horribly wrong then it doesn't bother me either as I knew in the first place that I was taking certain risks by trying.

 

[GuyQLD]

If memory serves, a, bleach and vinegar solution mix will work, known to work, also known to possibly kill you if you mix it incorrectly, dunno about bleach by itself, thought it needed rinsing

Happy to be corrected

I was under the impression that if you mix bleach and vinegar you actually create chlorine gas.. which is a pretty big no no.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicchemica...And-Vinegar.htm <3 google and no sleep.

Edit: Just noticed the part I bolded. Spot on Yob

 

[MaltyHops]

:icon_offtopic:

That reminds me- last Summer we were down in Freo on the boardwalk with the kids when a seagull shat all over my head, face (getting behind my sunnies) and some went in my mouth. I tasted it.

It didn't taste taste like chips.

.................... .... well? Enquiring minds are waiting :lol:

 

[stux]

So back to the topic

Can I just throw my fermenter in the shower with fat ladies showering, or does that risk yeast infections?

Tried that once. Broke the soap dish. Real Cnut.

 

[stux]

Another point, and something some people forget, one of the reasons people recommend pbw/sod perc and starsan is that once you get some stainless into your brewery (kegs, valves, kettles etc) you should stop using chlorine based cleaners/sanitizers. At least on the SS. IF you have to use something different on the SS you might as well use it on the plastics if you can, hence PBW etc

So I recommend what many brewers will eventually end up using straight out straight up