Removal of Hot/Cold Break and oher Kettle Trub

[wobbly]

What do others do to remove the absolute maximum amount of "Break" (Hot, Cold, Hops) in the boiled wort prior to transfer to their FV?

As a few of you will recall I have a Williamswarn Personal Brewery that I use in conjunction with a 20lt Braumeister and one issue I have with the set up is removal of the amount of "Break" material required to be collected in the WW sediment bottle. I need to carry out an extra clarification and empty the sediment bottle a couple of extra times. No big drama I'm just interested in seeing if I can improve my processes and get closer to using/producing a "clearer fresh wort" for use in the system. Other than this minor matter the system is doing everything I expected when purchasing.

I use Brewbrite in the boil, an immersion chiller to cool, and then whirlpool and let settle for about 20 mins. I also use hop pellets and a hop sock.

What I notice is at the end of the boil after adding the Brewbrite the wort is clear with large lumps of "Break" material floating in the wort but by the end of the chill and after the whirlpool and settling period (20 mins) when I transfer the cooled wort it has become quite "cloudy" with little evidence of "lumps" of break material..

I have read that
"For best trub removal, separation must take place at the highest possible temperature.
The high temperature maximises the difference in density and minimises the viscosity of
the wort. The wort should also be treated as gently as possible in order to maintain the
largest size of the trub particles."
here http://www.daltraining.eu/PDF/4wortclarificationandcoolingandaeration/04.1.pdf

Also somewhere in my research I read that there is a direst correlation between the amount of Hot Break and the amount of Cold Break. ie More HB = More CB

I have purchased a Blichmann Hop rocket and will use this to both influence flavour and filter the wort on the way to the chiller (CFCW or Chiller plate still to decide)

I have also read that "Boil Vigour" is important in helping form larger Break particles so I will source a SS basin for use as a "Dome" on the BM "a-la" "Dickos" modification.

• What do others do Hot or Cold whirlpool?
• What do others use in the Hop Rocket?
• Flowers only or pellets as well with some sort of fine screen (Swiss-voile/scrubby) to trap the hop material "a-la" Woolfy's home made HR.
• Any one use Rice Hulls or SS scrubbies in the HR
• How do others connect the HR into their "wort transfer" circuit before or after the pump?
• Does crushing courser and mashing longer have any impact on the amount of Break Material?
• I am aware from another forum that "Dicko" has experimented with a 1.4mm vs 1.2mm crush and mashing longer (overnight). Does this help?
• Does "Scooping" the sludge/foam from the top of the wort just as it comes to the boil help reduce the amount of Break?
• I note a number of long time (experienced) posters have moved away from Chiller Plates and back to Immersion Chillers. Any particular reason?
• Those that use an immersion chiller how do you agitate the wort "gently as possible" (as referenced above) to maintain large size trub/break particles?
• Does a different grain maltster (Wyermann vs Joe White) have any significant impact on the amount of Break generated in the boil.
• How much Brewbrite (grams) do others use on a typical 23lt brew?
• Have others experimented with different kettle finnings to determine what gives the best results.
• How do others prep the Brewbrite before adding to the kettle?
• I have read that it should be rehydrated and continuously stired for 15 mins before adding to the boil. Who does this and does it improve the performance
• Another source I read talked about leaving the Brewbrite to stand over night if possible to ensure effective hydration. Does anyone do this?

Any constructive comments advise would be appreciated

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[anthonyUK]

There is an interesting article on brulosophy - http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/
The results may surprise some people but for those that practice 'no chill' this will not be big news

Fundamentally the trubbier wort produced the clearer beer so I'm happy it is not something else I need to bother with.

 

[supertonio]

Just read the article linked above and it had some interesting results. Good to see no major flaws have been detected by the tasters. Well worth a read.

I tend to sometime get a bit cold break in the fermenter so it's put my mind at ease about this happening.

 

[Bribie G]

Sounds like you are throwing thousands and thousands of dollars at a perceived problem that doesn't actually exist. Sorry if my comment isn't "constructive".

 

[pk.sax]

It's like asking, my lambo brushed some pebbles, does anyone know a suitable sized bristle brush to sweep roads with so you can go out for a pebble free drive.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Your concern seems to be purely about inconvenience from too much trub in fermenter. I'd be interested to see if the hop rocket fixes it for you (with flowers).

 

[supertonio]

Again harking back to the article I think the main point is that differences will only be evident if there are two beers compared side by side. Even then it is seems impossible to differentiate between the trub and non trub.

Sorry to say it but............RDWHAHB.

 

[wobbly]

Whilst I am aware that there is a lot of brewers out there that claim break material has no detectable impact on their finished beer and therefore don't worry about it that wasn't the question I was seeking comment on.

My, and I'm sure those now considering/starting "pressure fermenting in a corney" are (or will be) very interest is how to minimise carry over into the fermentation vessel as it will result in significant less trub to have to manage at the end of the fermentation phase.

I acknowledge "No Chilling" and then allowing the break to settle before racking to the fermentation maybe one way to achieve this but like a lot of others on this site I am not keen on using a plastic container to transfer hot (boiling) wort into and I am aware that some are now using SS vessels for this process and whilst the WW is a SS conical it is not designed to hold wort at anything higher than 40C

My post was seeking comments on a whole lot of other potential processes that may (or may not) add those small 1% that can make a difference.

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Beertard]

So, how do yall filter your hotset?

 

[beercus]

There is an interesting article on brulosophy - http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/
The results may surprise some people but for those that practice 'no chill' this will not be big news

Fundamentally the trubbier wort produced the clearer beer so I'm happy it is not something else I need to bother with.

great read....

 

[Bribie G]

Trotting this out once again:

2 cubes identical brew
Top clear halves of cubes in one FV
Bottom murky halves of cubes in other FV



Took results to club meeting, blind tasting, little perceivable difference, other than that the cold break beers were considered a tad more flavourful. Maybe slightly different fermentation with CB as extra nutrient?

 

[manticle]

These side by side 'hot trub = clearer beer experiments never really touch on the main negative of hot break which is beer stability.
Whether chilling or slow/no chilling also has nothing to do with hot break carryover.

 

[Bribie G]

On reflection at the systems wars brewday the Braumeister hot break was fairly minimal due to the clear wort at the beginning of the boil. I was actually standing next to Pocket Beers when he was draining off and I was quite impressed.
So I'd guess the problem is the limitations of the Williamswarn system if it can't even handle the small amount of trub from a BM.

Maybe a SS conical fermenter would be the go, to remove any carried-over trub that way.

 

[Dave70]

Here's what I did with a recent pilsner.
After all the wirflock and chilling, drained into a cube and chilled overnight, then (gently) racked into fermenter the following day after the floaties had compacted. Came out clear as you might expect. Ad to this it was also crash chilled for a few days before bottling.

Not something I'd normally do with an ale, but since it's only a light bodied, delicately hopped beer that will see extended lagering, I wanted to give it every chance to shine. Or at least be transparent.rather than opaque.

I somehow doubt the best commercial brewers dump kettle trub into their fermentation tanks, so why do it small scale either if you can avoid it?

 

[WitWonder]

So what exactly is your objective here? In your OP I can't see the issue you're trying to solve. What is the problem with the finished beer you're producing? In any case, it doesn't follow that clear wort in the kettle correlates to clear wort edit: beer following fermentation.

That aside, I can relate my personal anecdote in relation to Brewbrite. I typically brew IPAs or APA's (pellet hops with no hopsock) and often had a problem with beer clarity - compounded by the fact I'm usually desperate to get from FV to glass as quickly as possible meant I was often drinking cloudy/hazy beers, some worse than others. After numerous failed experiments with filtering, I've been using Brewbrite with some success where most of my beers usually pour clear from the second pint from the keg. My process is thus;

-Rehydrate brewbrite (12g for ~40L) using the boiling wort or boiling water, whatever. About 5 or 10 minutes before I need to use it. Get all the lumps out
-Dump in brewbrite along with 0 minute hops at flame out, whirlpool
-Leave about 5-10 mins, then start transfer via CFC to fermenter

This results in some pretty clear wort in the kettle and a well defined break at the bottom of the BM, centered around the spindle. Because I want to capture the aroma of my 0 minute hops, I tend to start transfer once the whirlpool has abated.

 

[anthonyUK]

I somehow doubt the best commercial brewers dump kettle trub into their fermentation tanks, so why do it small scale either if you can avoid it?

I see little correlation between commercial and homebrew processes.
They are typically interested in profit and consistency of product.
Two things that have no interest for me at least.

 

[wobbly]

So what exactly is your objective here?

Those familiar with the WW know that it was developed for use with extracts which have been centrifuged to remove most/all of the hot and cold break as well as any hop material and the process is basically charge extract into FV and add yeast to sediment bottle and after fermentation is finished in around 4 days chill contents to 1-2 degrees to drop yeast out of suspension into the sediment bottle. Empty settled yeast as it reportedly can react adversely with the clarification fluid (colloidal silica oxide). Add first lot of clarification liquid and leave for 12-18 hours by which time sediment bottle is about 50% filled, add second lot of clarification liquid and after around a further 24 hours sediment bottle will now be 80-90% full. Remove sediment bottle and consume clear carbonated beer.

As the sediment bottle is only 750mils it is not designed to hold the 2 lts of break material that can/does occur/settle in a typical plastic fermenter.

The issue I am seeking to address is that the fresh wort from my BM results in a significant increase in the amount of break material I have to manage at the end of fermentation requiring at times three lots of clarification and emptying the sediment bottle up to 3 times so I am seeking ways to reduce the amount of break material entering the WW in the first place.

From the following I understand that you whirlpool the "Hot Wort" allow to settle for 15 mins and then transfer to your FV resulting in pretty clear wort.

-Rehydrate brewbrite (12g for ~40L) using the boiling wort or boiling water, whatever. About 5 or 10 minutes before I need to use it. Get all the lumps out
-Dump in brewbrite along with 0 minute hops at flame out, whirlpool
-Leave about 5-10 mins, then start transfer via CFC to fermenter

This is different to what I have been doing (I have been chilling first and whirlpooling the chilled wort) and this is the sort of comment I am after

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[manticle]

I've not chilled very often but settle, whirlpool, settle, chill would be the way I would do it (same as I do now but I currently transfer hot to cube rather than chiller-fermenter).
Could the answer to your query be as simple as this?

 

[manticle]

I see little correlation between commercial and homebrew processes.
They are typically interested in profit and consistency of product.
Two things that have no interest for me at least.

Only if your definition is massive megabrewed beer. Small, independent, micro, craft, whatever you want to call it make commercial products and many of those are interested in the same things you and I are.

 

[pk.sax]

I've not chilled very often but settle, whirlpool, settle, chill would be the way I would do it (same as I do now but I currently transfer hot to cube rather than chiller-fermenter).
Could the answer to your query be as simple as this?

I don't whirlpool very hot either, I let it sit for 15-20 minutes hoping for convection currents to settle down and then whirlpool. Often even direct the first lot of cooled wort back I to kettle to chill it further. I however carry some trub out in the end due to past poor pickup/hop management, the first lots of wort transferred however are clear.

Is there some reason to whirlpool while hot?

 

[anthonyUK]

Only if your definition is massive megabrewed beer. Small, independent, micro, craft, whatever you want to call it make commercial products and many of those are interested in the same things you and I are.

Not at all. They are still brewing on a scale that far exceeds what most of us make and they have the equipment and processes in place to effectively minimize trub.
For them it would be less beer in the fermenter and for me just less headspace.
I chill anyway but if I do transfer some break material I don't let it concern me.