Removal of Hot/Cold Break and oher Kettle Trub

[WitWonder]

Those familiar with the WW know that it was developed for use with extracts which have been centrifuged to remove most/all of the hot and cold break as well as any hop material and the process is basically charge extract into FV and add yeast to sediment bottle and after fermentation is finished in around 4 days chill contents to 1-2 degrees to drop yeast out of suspension into the sediment bottle. Empty settled yeast as it reportedly can react adversely with the clarification fluid (colloidal silica oxide). Add first lot of clarification liquid and leave for 12-18 hours by which time sediment bottle is about 50% filled, add second lot of clarification liquid and after around a further 24 hours sediment bottle will now be 80-90% full. Remove sediment bottle and consume clear carbonated beer.

As the sediment bottle is only 750mils it is not designed to hold the 2 lts of break material that can/does occur/settle in a typical plastic fermenter.

The issue I am seeking to address is that the fresh wort from my BM results in a significant increase in the amount of break material I have to manage at the end of fermentation requiring at times three lots of clarification and emptying the sediment bottle up to 3 times so I am seeking ways to reduce the amount of break material entering the WW in the first place.

From the following I understand that you whirlpool the "Hot Wort" allow to settle for 15 mins and then transfer to your FV resulting in pretty clear wort.

This is different to what I have been doing (I have been chilling first and whirlpooling the chilled wort) and this is the sort of comment I am after

Cheers

Wobbly

Thanks for the explanation. Well, I think you've answered your own question in your OP with what you quoted about separation occurring at the highest possible temperature. I've never heard of whirlpooling whilst cold (before now); to me it's a process that's always been done in the kettle whilst the wort is at or near boiling temperatures.

I don't whirlpool very hot either, I let it sit for 15-20 minutes hoping for convection currents to settle down and then whirlpool. Often even direct the first lot of cooled wort back I to kettle to chill it further. I however carry some trub out in the end due to past poor pickup/hop management, the first lots of wort transferred however are clear.

Is there some reason to whirlpool while hot?

For me I want to chill my wort as quickly as possible as, with IPA's, my volatile hop compounds are evaporating into the atmosphere and I want to trap them by chilling as quickly as possible so they end up in my beer.

 

[Dave70]

I see little correlation between commercial and homebrew processes.
They are typically interested in profit and consistency of product.
Two things that have no interest for me at least.

You're not interested in a consistent product?

Sure about that?

 

[Yob]

For me.. I tend to drink it fast enough that it makes no never mind.. That and hot break is left in the kettle.. Cold break, who gives a ****..

 

[anthonyUK]

You're not interested in a consistent product?

Sure about that?

Completely. I don' want to churn out the same thing time after time and there are far too many variables to consider if I did.

 

[Adr_0]

I don't whirlpool very hot either, I let it sit for 15-20 minutes hoping for convection currents to settle down and then whirlpool. Often even direct the first lot of cooled wort back I to kettle to chill it further. I however carry some trub out in the end due to past poor pickup/hop management, the first lots of wort transferred however are clear.

Is there some reason to whirlpool while hot?

The only comment I was going to make for the OP was apparently whirlpooling while hot is the go. The key driving force for separation in centrifuges (and whirlpools) is the difference in specific gravity or density. If this is most pronounced when warm, then it does make sense to do this warm.

If you do it warm, you will carry over the cold break into your chiller/fermenter. Not sure if that will be an issue for your 750mL sedimentation thingy.

While apparently a cold whirlpool will encourage cold break to build up in a cone and may mean less carryover (as everyone says above, cold break has no impact on beer quality) I would say that you would only get a decent knockout of hot break if you have a strong boil and use a good flocculant (Kopperfloc, hydrated Brewbrite). If high temperature/density difference is valid then this will obviously improve with higher temperature.

I (haven't measured this...) think I get less hot break from recirculating the mash, and with a hot whirlpool (getting a really fast whirlpool going) I'm able to drain out of the bottom of the kettle and get very clear runoff. This is particularly helpful for the plate chiller I use, but it does get some hops in it and of course cold break material.

Good luck...

EDIT: Called flocculant something else (too many Paulaner + Ardbeg)

 

[///]

Sounds like you are throwing thousands and thousands of dollars at a perceived problem that doesn't actually exist. Sorry if my comment isn't "constructive".

I'm with Bribie, sorry this made my head hurt a bit. Too much going on with 20 or 40l of beer. Can I suggest worrying about having enough kegs, trucks arriving without packed pallets ... pallets ... wanna worry about Chep Pallets ... they charge HOW MUCH for a lost pallet ... HOW MUCH ...

Too much trub, returning to thread, just trub-off in the morning ... works a treat ...

 

[Eagleburger]

Purely anecdotal and from a noob at that.

I listened to a podcast a few weeks ago about how trub had little or no negative effect on end product. I happened to brew a coopers eurolager kit with 2 or 3 kg pale malt and a little Saaz just after. And the whole kettle went into the fermenter.

Well it was an anxious few weeks...Dog farts, oh no what did I do. Butter slick feel, oh no what did I do. After a four day crash in the fermenter and a day in the keg it was cloudy, oh no what did I do. A week later, this tastes so good, I keep expecting the police to knock on the door wanting to take it away. The real devastation is it will take 3-4 weeks to brew another and the keg I have is nearly empty and wont last tomorrow night and I have yet to share it.

Added pic.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I would have thought it was logical to whirlpool after the cold break has formed.

But you cant notice it in a Stout....

 

[Dave70]

Completely. I don' want to churn out the same thing time after time and there are far too many variables to consider if I did.

I wont harp on this, but it seems, at least to me, an odd attitude. Ive always believed one of the hallmarks of a good brewer is being able to replicate beers, if for no other reason than to fine tune a recipe.
Even a hack like me can duplicate his mash schedule and use a thermometer. Unless you purchase your malt, hops and yeast at random and employ your elbow to gauge temperatures, I hardly see what 'variables'there are to consider for the 21st century brewer.

Guess I did harp on a bit. Sorry.

 

[mje1980]

I think I know what he meant. I love milds, love them, but no matter how happy I am with a particular batch, by the time I get around to brewing another, I'm sometimes out of this grain or that, so I'll sub it for another grain similar. Or, I'll just try a different ratio of crystals, or, I'll just add a little black malt with the pale choc, or, I'll try a late hop addition, or, I'll try a different strain of glorious uk ale yeast, or........ The list goes on, which is kind of the beauty of home brewing.

 

[goomboogo]

Wobbly, whether you whirlpool before or after chilling, there is going to be break carry over. You mention the possibility of changing to a plate chiller when you get the Hop Rocket. This will see cold break carry over to the fermenter as Adr_O mentioned at the end of his post. So, even more trub in the fermenter than you're getting now with the immersion chiller. You may have gone as far as you can with trub minimisation in the fermenter.

Scotty hit the nail on the head with his comment, "just trub-off in the morning." This is where you have an advantage over most homebrewers. The sediment bottle allows you to remove trub when you want. I understand the desire to minimise the number of times you need to empty the sediment bottle. However, looking at the list of possibilities in the OP, with a 750ml bottle, I suspect you'll fill it a couple times no matter what you try.

 

[Goose]

I somehow doubt the best commercial brewers dump kettle trub into their fermentation tanks, so why do it small scale either if you can avoid it?

Definitely the not the hot break, but I think most commercial brewers plate chill direct from boiler to fermenter and by definition cold break goes into their fermenters, am I right ?

 

[Bribie G]

A very few breweries filter the cold break out of their wort, for example Arkells in the UK. I'd guess most of them either don't bother. Arkells beer always struck me as a bit ordinary anyway.

 

[wobbly]

This is particularly helpful for the plate chiller I use, but it does get some hops in it and of course cold break material.

Those using a chiller plate does returning/recirculating the output from the chiller back to the whirlpool/boiler via a filter/hop back until the full boil volume is chilled show any reduced amount of cold break transferred to the fermentation vessel either via one last pass of the chiller/hop back or direct from the boiler to the fermenter

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[SnakeDoctor]

Didn't the WW guy say that extract beers are better than AG anyway?

Probably easier to minimise trub that way if you believe him.

 

[wobbly]

Didn't the WW guy say that extract beers are better than AG anyway?

Probably easier to minimise trub that way if you believe him.

Yes I guess you could be right but that's not what I am interested in doing

And on the subject (off topic I know) of how good the WW extract beers/process is perhaps this will be of interest to some.

Cheers

Woobly

.

View attachment 2014 Beer Awards Results for Brewers.pdf

 

[SnakeDoctor]

Yes I guess you could be right but that's not what I am interested in doing

And on the subject (off topic I know) of how good the WW extract beers/process is perhaps this will be of interest to some.

Cheers

Woobly

.

Your mate organises a comp and then declares his own customers as the winners?

Sounds reasonable to me

No mention of extract or not by the way.

 

[wobbly]

I will start another topic on this subject just so this thread doesn't get totally derailed

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[wobbly]

I will start another topic on the subject of the Williamswaarn Beer awards just so this topic doesn't get totally derailed

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Goose]

Those using a chiller plate does returning/recirculating the output from the chiller back to the whirlpool/boiler via a filter/hop back until the full boil volume is chilled show any reduced amount of cold break transferred to the fermentation vessel either via one last pass of the chiller/hop back or direct from the boiler to the fermenter

Cheers

Wobbly

yep. that'd do it I reckon.

Might even give that a try soon, after all, the proof's n the tasting.

There is some interesting reading here on cold break removal. Am sure most of you know who Zamil is, and he makes a point of it himself in this discussion, though it is dated.