Thanks for that - the mrmalty.com seems the least complicated for me at this stage. I didn't realise, but the beersmith calculator appears to be very similar to this. it's recommending about 17g for my next brew (an estimated 1.067 IPA), so 2 packets looks ideal. I've got a full pack and a 3/4 pack in my fridge, so will just use that this time and see how it ends up.
Pitching Dry Yeasts
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Just remember to keep in mind to input the production date of your yeast pack (not the use-by date, which, from memory, is what's printed on some dried yeast packs).
EDIT: For Fermentis - the date on the pack is 2 years AFTER the production date. So if the pack says "08-2017" you should enter Aug 31, 2015 as your date at MrMalty.
EDIT: For Fermentis - the date on the pack is 2 years AFTER the production date. So if the pack says "08-2017" you should enter Aug 31, 2015 as your date at MrMalty.
Seems simple enough to me if you take a practical approach. Re-hydrate in water only and pitch into wort before the cells use up their energy reserves. If you already started the re-hydration process and can't pitch the yeast soon enough, you need to add some wort to the starter to kept the yeast fed.
As to the exact timing? I don't know. I would guess that a 10 minute hydration should do the trick and you probably need a fermentable addition after 30 minutes. Or it could be 3 and 10 minutes. I'm sure that the yeast manufacturers have a complex answer for this, but at the end of the day most home brewers would prefer a simple rule of thumb.
As to the exact timing? I don't know. I would guess that a 10 minute hydration should do the trick and you probably need a fermentable addition after 30 minutes. Or it could be 3 and 10 minutes. I'm sure that the yeast manufacturers have a complex answer for this, but at the end of the day most home brewers would prefer a simple rule of thumb.
Lord Raja Goomba I
Prisoner of Sobriety
The thing that got me rehydrating in water, was I used BRY97 and hate the lag time (I discussed this recently with someone). I rehydrated to shorten that time. Since then, there have been flame wars aplenty about it, but I've become a solid rehydrater.
To me the effort isn't too bad. I like the quick lead in times.
ATM I'm trialling some Mangrove Jacks yeasts to see what can go in the brewery dried yeast wise, before I get moving on a stir-plate build and yeast bank. To make the experiment fair, I rehydrate all as I use them. I've had the last 3 all take off pretty quick - I pitched two yeasts - one a wit, the other a west coast ale after rehydrating at 6pm last night, got up this morning at 6am to see some very healthy krausen.
That's the other thing I really like (even if it's just a peace of mind thing - fake or real) is that my krausens are usually more vigorous with a rehydrate. To me, that spells good yeast health.
Additionally, from the good krausens, I have grabbed a couple at high krausen, scooped and pitched into big beers - an RIS and an AIPA on the high (1.070) side and seen them take off like rockets.
All this anecdotal evidence has proved to me that I much prefer a rehydrate.
To me the effort isn't too bad. I like the quick lead in times.
ATM I'm trialling some Mangrove Jacks yeasts to see what can go in the brewery dried yeast wise, before I get moving on a stir-plate build and yeast bank. To make the experiment fair, I rehydrate all as I use them. I've had the last 3 all take off pretty quick - I pitched two yeasts - one a wit, the other a west coast ale after rehydrating at 6pm last night, got up this morning at 6am to see some very healthy krausen.
That's the other thing I really like (even if it's just a peace of mind thing - fake or real) is that my krausens are usually more vigorous with a rehydrate. To me, that spells good yeast health.
Additionally, from the good krausens, I have grabbed a couple at high krausen, scooped and pitched into big beers - an RIS and an AIPA on the high (1.070) side and seen them take off like rockets.
All this anecdotal evidence has proved to me that I much prefer a rehydrate.
B
bradsbrew
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Hostage_85
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I pitch using Dry Yeast, although want to try re-hydrating and getting into starters at some stage.
I've got a question slightly OT
Every batch I do, most of the recipes stated the FG should finish around 1.008 to 1.012. To date, I've never had a batch finish within that range.
The closest I've had is my latest one which is a Czech Pilsner which finished up at 1.014.
Do you think this would be due to Dry pitching and not re-hydrating?
I've got a question slightly OT
Every batch I do, most of the recipes stated the FG should finish around 1.008 to 1.012. To date, I've never had a batch finish within that range.
The closest I've had is my latest one which is a Czech Pilsner which finished up at 1.014.
Do you think this would be due to Dry pitching and not re-hydrating?
Lyrebird_Cycles
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I know this has been done to death but I'm going to put my bit in anyway.
The best medium for rehydration is yeast rehydration medium made by the nutrient companies, such as Laffort's "Dynastart".
If you don't want to bother with using such, use ordinary water, preferably chlorine free. Do not use wort. DO NOT use nutrients.
Warm the water up to 38 to 39 degrees, use ten times the yeast weight in water.
Sprinkle yeast on top, if the layer is millimetres deep just leave it. If your vessel is narrow and the layer is deeper mix it very gently for a few seconds
Leave it rehydrate for 15 - 20 minutes. Do nothing to it in this time.
After this, agitate gently for a few seconds.
If your wort is ~ 20 degrees the yeast can go straight in. If your wort is under 15 degrees, add an equal volume of wort to the yeast slurry and mix. When krausen is apparent, add the slurry to the wort. Between 15 and 20 it's your call, probably better to do a shandy but the advantage is small.
Trust me on this, I've actually done the trials for all the components in the above and can confirm that they are the optimal combination.
The reasons are pretty simple: drying yeast stresses the hell out of it. Rehydrating it stresses it again. You want to be nice to the yeast in this phase.
You want water to pass though the membrane quickly to rehydrate the cell: warmth and low osmotic potential in the medium are optimal.
When the cell is part way hydrated there is a lot of stress on the cell wall, so mixing it at this stage will damage the cells.
The rehydration medium is warm, pitching it to wort with more than about 15 degrees temperature difference will inhibit the yeast: best to acclimatise gradually.
The action of the commercial rehydration media is somewhat controversial but I've been involved in extensive trials over the last 7-8 years and we have documented a reduced incidence of stuck ferments, even at very high sugar levels. At ordinary sugar levels I do not believe they are as important.
The best medium for rehydration is yeast rehydration medium made by the nutrient companies, such as Laffort's "Dynastart".
If you don't want to bother with using such, use ordinary water, preferably chlorine free. Do not use wort. DO NOT use nutrients.
Warm the water up to 38 to 39 degrees, use ten times the yeast weight in water.
Sprinkle yeast on top, if the layer is millimetres deep just leave it. If your vessel is narrow and the layer is deeper mix it very gently for a few seconds
Leave it rehydrate for 15 - 20 minutes. Do nothing to it in this time.
After this, agitate gently for a few seconds.
If your wort is ~ 20 degrees the yeast can go straight in. If your wort is under 15 degrees, add an equal volume of wort to the yeast slurry and mix. When krausen is apparent, add the slurry to the wort. Between 15 and 20 it's your call, probably better to do a shandy but the advantage is small.
Trust me on this, I've actually done the trials for all the components in the above and can confirm that they are the optimal combination.
The reasons are pretty simple: drying yeast stresses the hell out of it. Rehydrating it stresses it again. You want to be nice to the yeast in this phase.
You want water to pass though the membrane quickly to rehydrate the cell: warmth and low osmotic potential in the medium are optimal.
When the cell is part way hydrated there is a lot of stress on the cell wall, so mixing it at this stage will damage the cells.
The rehydration medium is warm, pitching it to wort with more than about 15 degrees temperature difference will inhibit the yeast: best to acclimatise gradually.
The action of the commercial rehydration media is somewhat controversial but I've been involved in extensive trials over the last 7-8 years and we have documented a reduced incidence of stuck ferments, even at very high sugar levels. At ordinary sugar levels I do not believe they are as important.
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The Vatican insists all dry yeast be rehydrated in holy water. 2 packets too be sure too be sure. It's the attempuration (?) that's the pain in the arse. Sprinkle works with a few hail marys.
Lyrebird_Cycles thanks for the info. Just checking. You say 38-39C. Substantially higher than the 28C suggested by Fermentis?
As my 2c I'm over the lag with dry yeast such as US05 rehydrating or not and now make a starter culture first. Maybe I've been unlucky with the batches I got through the post, but my brews have been taking up to 2 days to kick off pitching 0.75g per L.
Current brew (with starter) airlock activity started within a few hours and is already at FG after 5 days.
All advice is its unnecessary to make a starter if using dry yeast but I'm seeing a big advantage in predictability and noticeably cleaner beer quality.
As my 2c I'm over the lag with dry yeast such as US05 rehydrating or not and now make a starter culture first. Maybe I've been unlucky with the batches I got through the post, but my brews have been taking up to 2 days to kick off pitching 0.75g per L.
Current brew (with starter) airlock activity started within a few hours and is already at FG after 5 days.
All advice is its unnecessary to make a starter if using dry yeast but I'm seeing a big advantage in predictability and noticeably cleaner beer quality.
Lyrebird_Cycles
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Yes, 38-39 oC unless there is a specific reason not to: the idea is to hasten the process by softening the cell wall*.
The usual reason for not allowing yeast to reach this sort of temperature is that it greatly increases the toxicity of alcohol*. Since there's none present at this stage, it's not a problem.
I can confirm that US05 happily survives 40 oC rehydration water and kicks off straight away.
*Both these things relate to the same phenomenon: the lipid bilayer of the cell wall is a liquid crystal which undergoes a phase transition (melting), usually around 35 oC.
The usual reason for not allowing yeast to reach this sort of temperature is that it greatly increases the toxicity of alcohol*. Since there's none present at this stage, it's not a problem.
I can confirm that US05 happily survives 40 oC rehydration water and kicks off straight away.
*Both these things relate to the same phenomenon: the lipid bilayer of the cell wall is a liquid crystal which undergoes a phase transition (melting), usually around 35 oC.
Blind Dog
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I'm assuming DBS is taking the evening off?
Anyway, on a serious note, has anyone actually seen a properly conducted (so excluding brulosophy et al) study comparing the 'sprinkle' method of rehydration to rehydration in water and/or wort (sterile or otherwise)? I've only ever managed to find oblique references that never pan out to an actual study, statements without any supporting evidence and opinions. You'd think it would have been done given its a frequent topic here and on the related US site, and dried yeast is widely used in commercial operations
Anyway, on a serious note, has anyone actually seen a properly conducted (so excluding brulosophy et al) study comparing the 'sprinkle' method of rehydration to rehydration in water and/or wort (sterile or otherwise)? I've only ever managed to find oblique references that never pan out to an actual study, statements without any supporting evidence and opinions. You'd think it would have been done given its a frequent topic here and on the related US site, and dried yeast is widely used in commercial operations
Lyrebird_Cycles
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References
Yes the references are old, this topic was put to bed twenty years ago.
Most of the work in the field is done for wine yeasts: must is a much tougher environment than wort* and the wine industry is a bigger market for the yeast suppliers because commercial breweries culture their own strains.
Commercial wineries also culture but yeast is never re-pitched* so the culture is started from rehydrated dry yeast, usually 2 x 500 g packets, then built up to an appropriate pitch level (in our case 8,000 litres of yeast culture at > 108 cells / ml for a standard white ferment). We measure the nitrogen status and the yeast counts on the cultures twice a day, giving us a good handle on how the well the rehydration has worked.
We go through hundreds of kilos of dried yeast each year and I personally put a lot of time and effort into training people to do it properly.
If "sprinkle" worked well we'd do it. It doesn't, so we don't.
* These things are related. By the time it's finished fermenting a must the yeast is knackered.
- Henschke, P.A. Preparing a yeast starter culture: fresh or dried yeast? Allen, M. (eds). Advances in juice clarification and yeast inoculation: proceedings of a seminar; 15 August 1996; Melbourne, Vic. Australian Society of Viticulture and Oenology: Adelaide, S.A : 17-21 ; 1997.
- Monk, P.R. Rehydration and propagation of active dry wine yeast. Aust. Wine Ind. J. 1: 35; 1986.
Yes the references are old, this topic was put to bed twenty years ago.
Most of the work in the field is done for wine yeasts: must is a much tougher environment than wort* and the wine industry is a bigger market for the yeast suppliers because commercial breweries culture their own strains.
Commercial wineries also culture but yeast is never re-pitched* so the culture is started from rehydrated dry yeast, usually 2 x 500 g packets, then built up to an appropriate pitch level (in our case 8,000 litres of yeast culture at > 108 cells / ml for a standard white ferment). We measure the nitrogen status and the yeast counts on the cultures twice a day, giving us a good handle on how the well the rehydration has worked.
We go through hundreds of kilos of dried yeast each year and I personally put a lot of time and effort into training people to do it properly.
If "sprinkle" worked well we'd do it. It doesn't, so we don't.
* These things are related. By the time it's finished fermenting a must the yeast is knackered.
GalBrew
Well-Known Member
I always wondered what the deal was with the instruction to rehydrate in the 20'sC, as all our lab yeast work is done much warmer.Lyrebird_Cycles said:
Lyrebird_Cycles
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As I understand it, the original work was done by the late great Dr Paul Monk of the AWRI in the eighties (see ref 2 above). It then spread worldwide with the "flying winemakers" but some parts haven't caught up yet.
In the wine industry there are some specific strains that do not like rehydration at warmer temperatures but these are usually non-sacchs, used for things like tarting up the thiols in sauvignon bland. If a manufacturer recommends 20s across the range of yeasts I would simply ignore it and go for 38-39. If they change the recommended temperature with strain, then I would follow their instructions (but I'd also do a trial to see whether they are right).
In the wine industry there are some specific strains that do not like rehydration at warmer temperatures but these are usually non-sacchs, used for things like tarting up the thiols in sauvignon bland. If a manufacturer recommends 20s across the range of yeasts I would simply ignore it and go for 38-39. If they change the recommended temperature with strain, then I would follow their instructions (but I'd also do a trial to see whether they are right).
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
So upshot is that liquid is better than dry?
technobabble66
Meat Popsicle
(Mainly @ Lyrebird Cycles: )
Out of interest, what are the strengths & weaknesses of the assumption that the optimal treatment of the wine yeasts are the same as the optimal treatment of both ale and lager yeasts? Namely in terms of what's going to produce the best ales or lagers, as opposed to the best yeast growth rates
Definitely not saying it's wrong, merely checking the veracity of what seems to be the main evidence for the way we treat our yeasts. I'm asking as I'm not knowledgeable about wine yeasts nor wine fermentation.
And i'm curious as to why all (i think) of brewing yeast suppliers would suggest 20-35°C for rehydrating (e.g.: 20-26 (fermentis lagers), 24-30 (fermentis ales), 25-30 (lallemand lagers), 30-35 (lallemand ales), yet you're reporting 38-39°C is optimal from your own studies (with wine yeasts, i assume?)?
Could it be that the beer strains are slightly different and are either optimised under slightly different conditions, &/or that though it might be sub-optimal for the growth of the yeasties, these lower temps are optimal for producing the best flavour profile in the beer? Just wondering.
Out of interest, what are the strengths & weaknesses of the assumption that the optimal treatment of the wine yeasts are the same as the optimal treatment of both ale and lager yeasts? Namely in terms of what's going to produce the best ales or lagers, as opposed to the best yeast growth rates
Definitely not saying it's wrong, merely checking the veracity of what seems to be the main evidence for the way we treat our yeasts. I'm asking as I'm not knowledgeable about wine yeasts nor wine fermentation.
And i'm curious as to why all (i think) of brewing yeast suppliers would suggest 20-35°C for rehydrating (e.g.: 20-26 (fermentis lagers), 24-30 (fermentis ales), 25-30 (lallemand lagers), 30-35 (lallemand ales), yet you're reporting 38-39°C is optimal from your own studies (with wine yeasts, i assume?)?
Could it be that the beer strains are slightly different and are either optimised under slightly different conditions, &/or that though it might be sub-optimal for the growth of the yeasties, these lower temps are optimal for producing the best flavour profile in the beer? Just wondering.
skb
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A lot of people seem to think so but I think this is for variety ... I have to say I love dry and use it more than liquid, and I have rarely entered comps but when I have most beer have been in top 5 and several have placed, and every time with dry yeast. I think dry yeast is easier to handle, cheaper, and less likely to introduce unwanted effects from starters.manticle said:
That being said I have two beers fermenting now one with liquid (WLP004) and one with my go to US-05.
In terms of rehydrating I have only recently started this, have not noticed difference so far but that may be because I am doing with US-05 which is such a work horse. I use the advised 15-30min. I need to try with S-23 as I have had some very slow starts and LONG fermentation, but I ferment at 12.5c with this yeast.
That's my 2 cents
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
I was making a bad joke about another hotly debated hb topic.
Piss me take.
Piss me take.
