Pitch New Yeast?

[Hoser]

So I made a Porter with 2.3kg dark DME and 0.7kg steeped grains as well as 500g molasses, 500g brown sugar and 60g juniper berries. It was my first attempt at a full boil although I miscalculated the required volume for the boil. Anyway ended at 17L, no chill and then poured back and forth from fermenter to pot several times to aerate. However given I added no additonal tap water, there was no oxygen to start and I think I came up short on aeration.

On top of that I made a stepped up yeast starter from an old yeast packet (Dec'10) but maybe I came up short on count. Not sure - my calc made sense from Mr Malty but still...

Anyway OG was 1070 and now it's at 1034 and not moving. That's barely over 50% attenuation. I've kept it in the fridge at 18 degrees for 7 days, then raised to 19 degrees for two days, then 20 for 2, now 21 degrees for a day. I think there was just a combination of not enough yeast and not enough oxygen. Oh I've been giving it a gentle swirl every day too.

I'll watch for a couple more days but after 2 weeks I think it'll be time to add more yeast....

I've never pitched more yeast so couple quick questions:
1) Am I making sense or should I wait longer?
2) If I do pitch new yeast, I assume it's best to use the same strain (in this case Wyeast 1450 Denny's Favourite 50 which should be 74-76%)
3) No need for a starter? Just smack, wait few hours, warm to fermenter temp and then pitch?
4) Do I aerate? Assume no. Do I just pour on top or gently stir in?

Cheers!

 

[manticle]

There are several tricks you can do before adding new yeast but if you do end up adding new yeast, definitely make a starter.

Don't aerate though.

Have you tried a fast ferment test to calculate expected FG? http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Fast_Ferment_Test

I'm not sure a full boil means no oxygen after aeration. It simply means dissolved oxygen is driven off during the boil. Physical motion will still aerate the wort. I may have misunderstood something.

I would rack the brew and do the fast ferment test and see how it all goes first.

 

[Hoser]

here are several tricks you can do before adding new yeast but if you do end up adding new yeast, definitely make a starter.

Don't aerate though.

Have you tried a fast ferment test to calculate expected FG? http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Fast_Ferment_Test

I'm not sure a full boil means no oxygen after aeration. It simply means dissolved oxygen is driven off during the boil. Physical motion will still aerate the wort. I may have misunderstood something.

I would rack the brew and do the fast ferment test and see how it all goes first.

Cool thanks Manticle. Looking at the fast fermentation site it mostly refers to a new wort and yeast. Assume in my case, I just take a sample of the beer, pitch yeast in sample, top with foil, shake regularly and then check FG after 2 days? Seems like a good way to catch. Same as a starter really.

Cheers!

 

[mwd]

+1 I would have thought pouring back and forth would have got enough air/oxygen into the mixture. Bit curious why you did not add water to make up the shortfall 1070 is fairly high for OG going to be a strong Porter.

I have a spray nozzle on my kitchen tap which is great for aeration although I read somewhere aerating hot wort is a big no no.

Edit: the Butters way of checking FG might take more than a couple of days just shake until all action has ceased and that should be it. Very similar to making up a starter.

 

[manticle]

Cool thanks Manticle. Looking at the fast fermentation site it mostly refers to a new wort and yeast. Assume in my case, I just take a sample of the beer, pitch yeast in sample, top with foil, shake regularly and then check FG after 2 days? Seems like a good way to catch. Same as a starter really.

Cheers!

Actually the way I do it (similar to butters' method mentioned below) is simply to take a sample, measure the gravity, place in a clean, sanitised stubby (don't want other microorganisms fermenting), seal and shake the shit out of it whenever I remember. Check in 2 days - if gravity has dropped, repeat until stable. That's where your brew should end up (roughly)If gravity doesn't drop - repeat anyway. If it still doesn't drop, add new yeast and try again. If new yeast doesn't drop it then that's probably your FG or that yeast strain has suffered some kind of mass death.

Takes a while but worth being patient with the old beer.

 

[Hoser]

Bit curious why you did not add water to make up the shortfall 1070 is fairly high for OG going to be a strong Porter.

Honestly I only didn't top up to the recipe 19L as I wanted to see how a full boil comes out without topping up with water - more curiosity than anything. Learning is get to a gravity that's manageable to the recipe by adding water as necessary.

 

[Hoser]

Actually the way I do it (similar to butters' method mentioned below) is simply to take a sample, measure the gravity, place in a clean, sanitised stubby (don't want other microorganisms fermenting), seal and shake the shit out of it whenever I remember. Check in 2 days - if gravity has dropped, repeat until stable. That's where your brew should end up (roughly)If gravity doesn't drop - repeat anyway. If it still doesn't drop, add new yeast and try again. If new yeast doesn't drop it then that's probably your FG or that yeast strain has suffered some kind of mass death.

Takes a while but worth being patient with the old beer.

Cool thanks. Will give the fast ferment test a go and rack tomorrow. Hopefully racking alone will get it moving again. To be safe, I assume I should bottle these ones into plastic rather than bottles? Have visions of exploding bottles due to too fermentation post bottling....

 

[manticle]

Personally I'd be doing everything I could to get it to attenuate properly before thinking about what kind of bottling vessel. I'd prefer to bottle with confidence rather than caution.

2 week fermentation isn't that crazy from my experience - some yeasts (most UK yeasts I've used particularly) just slow down in the middle. I don't have experience with 1450 though.

How long has it been 'stuck' at 1034? have you tried just gentle swirling?

 

[Hoser]

Yeah tried gentle swirling several times. Down to 1032 now but still very slow. Racking tomorrow night to be sure. Think that's too early? That will be 13 days. Been raising to 22 degrees from 18 slowly in fridge too.

 

[manticle]

Slow or not, the fact that it's moved suggests patience is advised. I think you'll notice the racking make a difference.

 

[Hoser]

Cool thanks! My only challenge will be watching the temp. My trusty new temp control fridge will be bubbling away with a Hefeweizen at 18 degrees by tomorrow afternoon. I've raised the temp on the fridge from 18 up 21.5 trying to kickstart the Porter fermentation which, although slow, is actually working. I don't want to shock the yeast or drive premature flocculuation and end out with too much diacetyl which I believe is an ongoing problem for me.

So will rack and leave fermenter out but gotta be sure my place sits at 21 degrees - at least where the fermenter is kicking around!

 

[toolio666]

I'm fairly new to things, so use kits and then add some bits and pieces to try an make it better.
I've done a Porter recently and it's stuck, like Hoser's.

The recipe I used (from the LHBS)

1 Tin Cascade Chocolate Mahogany Porter
1kg LME
225g Brown Malt
145g Chocolate Malt
225g Crystal Malt
40g Fuggles (30g@0 & 10g@20).
Safale S-04
Made up to 20L.​

OG was 1042 and after 6 days got to 1022. Still sitting there 3 weeks later. It hasn't been totally temperature controlled, but mainly stayed in the 16-20 degrees range.

I've tried swirling the fermenter to no effect. I've done a Fast Ferment Test (stable for 3 days at 1018).

I'm a bit limited as I don't have a 2nd fermenter to rack to either.

Any thoughts or suggestions on what to do?

Thanks

 

[waggastew]

I see you have brown malt in your recipe. Did you mash it or just steep? It is designed to be mashed. Not sure if this could contribute to a high SG?

Also the fact that the temp has been upto 20degC tends to make me think the ferment is not stalled but maybe finished?

 

[toolio666]

I see you have brown malt in your recipe. Did you mash it or just steep? It is designed to be mashed. Not sure if this could contribute to a high SG?

Also the fact that the temp has been upto 20degC tends to make me think the ferment is not stalled but maybe finished?

Being new, not really certain. Had the grain in the bag with 2L of water and brought up to the boil for 20 minutes. Then squeezed all the goodness and put the hops in...

Ch

 

[Punkal]

You have sort of steeped your grain not mashed it, that will have converted some of the starch but not much especially if you brought it to the boil... To mash you need to hold your grain at a temp of about 65-68 for around 30 minutes at least and you should have a grain that have a lot of enzymes in it i dont know if brown malt has enough to mash itself.

 

[manticle]

I'm fairly new to things, so use kits and then add some bits and pieces to try an make it better.
I've done a Porter recently and it's stuck, like Hoser's.

The recipe I used (from the LHBS)

1 Tin Cascade Chocolate Mahogany Porter
1kg LME
225g Brown Malt
145g Chocolate Malt
225g Crystal Malt
40g Fuggles (30g@0 & 10g@20).
Safale S-04
Made up to 20L.​

OG was 1042 and after 6 days got to 1022. Still sitting there 3 weeks later. It hasn't been totally temperature controlled, but mainly stayed in the 16-20 degrees range.

I've tried swirling the fermenter to no effect. I've done a Fast Ferment Test (stable for 3 days at 1018).

I'm a bit limited as I don't have a 2nd fermenter to rack to either.

Any thoughts or suggestions on what to do?

Thanks

With those fermentables I wouldn't find 1018 to be ridiculous and if you've done the FF test properly then I'd suggest that's it for this yeast.

1022 isn't amazingly far away from 1018 but I'd exercise a little more patience and see if you can get those few more points.

If it tastes good at 1020ish then bottle and carbonate conservatively. Alternatively, if you'd like it a bit drier, you could try adding an active starter of a slightly more attenuative yeast. Don't just put the pack in dry though.

Danstar nottingham might be a good choice from what I've heard (haven't used it, can't swear from experience)

As for Brown malt - I'm almost certain it has little to no diastatic power and needs to be mashed with other base malts (those with surplus).

 

[Nick JD]

It's bloody S04!

It will sit there like an insolent baby getting the choo choo train feeding method and turning its little shit head to the side when you know its hungry...

...and then as soon as you bottle it, it decides to eat all that extra sugaz up and make the bottles unpossible to pour without being 1C and handled like nitroglycerine.

It's a ******* YEAST! Beware the blue packet.

 

[waggastew]

It's a ******* YEAST! Beware the blue packet.

Hilarious!

 

[dougsbrew]

something is wrong here. a can, all that malt and an opening gravity of 1042.
with fg at 1022 at the moment its sitting at 2.6% alc. should be a lot higher.
either the og reading is wrong or shes unfermented. :unsure:

 

[manticle]

OG sounds OK. 1 tin of normal kit stuff + 1kg of dex will hit 1040-ish. This is 1 kilo of malt which is about 25% less fermentable than dex plus a bit of spec malt (most add fairly little sugar to the brew) plus a base malt that probably didn't convert.