Pilsner and acid adjustment

[labels]

As I said, an all pils mash will hit around 5.8 pH. That is too high. Acid adjustments fix that.

Hmm, I have used Weyermann Pilsner malts (premium, normal and Bohemian) and BB malts (Galaxy - sadly no longer available and BB Pils) and never had a pH of 5.8, always around 5.2 to 5.4 without any acid additions or acidulated malt. I have used both acid (phos) and acidulated malt in the past but I state again, the powerful buffering from the natural acids in the malt will limit the pH drop considerably.

I have also used JW pils but can't remember testing pH. I have only made the one lager with it and ended up with a beer which tasted so close to Carlton Draught you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. As I don't like Carlton, I've never used that malt again.

 

[Black n Tan]

I use very soft, low alkalinity water (Melbourne water) and a pretty thin mash (5L/kg), and my mash pH is about 5.6-5.7 for a pilsner grist without adding acid. I add 4% acidulated to bring it down to 5.2. Using Brun water it estimates the pH will be just 0.1pH unit lower for a thick mash (2.5L/kg). Most advice I have seen is that you will need to add some acid to get to a ph of 5.2 in the mash for a pilsner type grist.

 

[Dunkelbrau]

Hmm, I have used Weyermann Pilsner malts (premium, normal and Bohemian) and BB malts (Galaxy - sadly no longer available and BB Pils) and never had a pH of 5.8, always around 5.2 to 5.4 without any acid additions or acidulated malt. I have used both acid (phos) and acidulated malt in the past but I state again, the powerful buffering from the natural acids in the malt will limit the pH drop considerably.

I have also used JW pils but can't remember testing pH. I have only made the one lager with it and ended up with a beer which tasted so close to Carlton Draught you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. As I don't like Carlton, I've never used that malt again.

As BnT mentioned above, with low alkalinity water, and all pils the usual pH would be around 5.7. (RODI or close to RODI water). When you increase the alkalinity you will need some other additions (either minerals, darker malts or acids) to lower the pH into the correct range for the beer you are brewing. Some waters in some areas have higher mineral content and can bring an all pils malt into place pretty easily. Thats great, and if thats the case then that explains your experience.

If you are trying to replicate (or just strike it lucky) and have a low alkalinity AND low mineral content water, then you will need some kind of acidic addition into the water or mash to bring it down into acceptable ranges for good enzymatic activity.

I'd be interested in seeing the water profiles and malt bill for the brews you mention if you have the records for them?

 

[TheWiggman]

Results are in.
Far better than the first attempt. Not a great beer, I'm assuming due to yeast treatment. Bottled brews are completely ruined by diacetyl and there is a hint of it in the kegged beer. Totally drinkable, very light and easy to knock back. Just lacks character I would associate with a pilsner. Unlike the first brew though, no off putting acidity.
Next time more yeast and fresher. 5l flask on the cards.

 

[Adr_0]

What happened to the first one?

There is a lot that can go wrong with a pilsener: body can be off (mash too high, under-attenuated, under-carbed), chlorine will create chlorophenols, boil is not vigorous/long enough leaving DMS in, general infection, diacetyl, esters...

I have a 3L flask and for a 50L batch did 3 steps, the last two of which were 2.5 and 2.5L. I'm sure someone will throw the book at me, but there's still growth in the last step which = more yeast. There are many ways to skin a cat if a 5L is going to be too heavy/bulky.

 

[labels]

Results are in.
Far better than the first attempt. Not a great beer, I'm assuming due to yeast treatment. Bottled brews are completely ruined by diacetyl and there is a hint of it in the kegged beer. Totally drinkable, very light and easy to knock back. Just lacks character I would associate with a pilsner. Unlike the first brew though, no off putting acidity.
Next time more yeast and fresher. 5l flask on the cards.

Odd that diacetyl is more prominent in the bottled version than the kegged version. Diacetyl is very noticeable even in very tiny amounts in lagers and is generally caused by yeast not absorbing the chemical late in the fermentation cycle OR fermenting too cold in which case more diacetyl is produced than the yeast can re-absorb at the end of fermentation. Some strains produce more than others so it's worth checking this before choosing a yeast.

 

[TheWiggman]

For clarity - Adr_0, I say yeast treatment based on what I'm tasting in the beer and my knowledge of my process. There's a bit to read through in this thread but most of the info on the first brew is in this post. FYI, 2nd brew got down to 1.009, no chlorine or bleach in my process, boil is ridiculous and went for 75 mins.
Labels, I've started a thread before about diacetyl and I have never got it in the keg, but when I've got it it's always been in the bottles. I wouldn't say it's more prominent; diacetyl completely overpowers the bottled beer making it (in my opinion) undrinkable, and is barely detectable in the keg (but still there). Just always how it's been for me. Hence why I'm tending towards yeast issues as the ferment was longer than I'd liked and when I've had good ferments I've never had diacetyl.
And yes, I did a diacetyl rest with this brew and left it on the cake for a few weeks.
Note too that this yeast was recultured from a previous brew so there's lots of margin for error there.

Moral of the story: success with acidulated malt, nasty acidity with lactic acid.

 

[Black n Tan]

Thanks for the update Wiggman. Your comment "success with acidulated malt, nasty acidity with lactic acid" made we wonder if you understood that acidulated malt is basically just malt that has been bathed in lactic acid (contains 2-3% lactic acid by weight). It should not matter if you use acidulated malt or lactic acid, the issue is not to use too much. I think the issue with the first beer was that you used too much lactic acid and it was above the taste threshold. I suspect that using lactic acid in the sparge was a contributor with the first batch because the amount of lactic acid in the mash (combination of the lactic acid and the acidulated malt) you used looks very reasonable to me. If you want to acidify your sparge water you could always use phosphoric acid (that is what I use) but I typically only target a sparge water pH of 6.0. You targeted a sparge ph of 5.6 which I think is probably too low considering tannins are typically only extracted with a pH above 6.0 and the grain already has significant buffering acidity. That said I am starting to wonder if acidifying the sparge is having undesirable effects on my pilsners so I am going to drop it for the next batch. In your second batch I estimate the mash pH was about 5.5, which I think is a little high and may affect the flavour and crispness. So next time may be target a mash pH of 5.2 and a sparge pH of 6.0 (using phosphoric acid) or don't acidly the sparge water at all. Anyway they are my thoughts for better or worse.

 

[TheWiggman]

Appreciate the comments B&T, and yes I did understand how acidulated malt is put together. You're right though, in my instance I added too much and it ruined it.
Like all things though I'd imagine there would be different flavour contributions from lactic acid and acidulated malt. Always more to learn. I'd be interested to hear the differences with sparge water acidification as that is well and truly on topic.

 

[Black n Tan]

Common wisdom is by acidifying the sparge water you reduce the risk of tannin extraction by keeping the pH below 6. Although I didn't have astringency problem at the time, I introduced it into my process about a year ago as an incremental 'improvement'. Since this time I have noticed my pilsners have a bit of astringency which muddies the finish. However it doesn't seem to affect my Munich Helles which won the Nats last year. So my suspicion is that it is a combination of tannin extraction from the grain with tannins from the high hopping rates used in the pilsner. As acidifying the sparge water is the one major change I have made, it is in my sights as a potential reason for the problem: despite it being contrary to the common widsom. I will not be making a pils until June, but will post my results. The only other culprit is the 2013 noble hops had particularly low alpha acid levels. Although I didn't increase the amount of hops I used as I use them mainly for flavour/aroma additions, I do wonder if it was a bad batch that contributed to the astringency issue.

 

[labels]

I think that you are underestimating the phenomenal buffering power of the mash. I don't think there is any need to acidify you sparge water unless your water supply is seriously alkaline. Then as soon as you add acid to neutralize the alkalinity you form a salt of some sort. If your water is that seriously alkaline you might be better using a different water source or buy a RO water purifier.
I have absolutely no problem making super clean lager beer using the simplest possible method of reaching my goal, the KISS principle if you like but paying very close attention to timing, temperature control and sanitation. I've made lagers many times using one malt, one hop, filtered town water and my chosen liquid yeast strain - no chemical adjustments whatsoever. They are super clean and free of astringency, graininess, sourness or any kind of fault, even when taste-tested at 20C
In my opinion if you strip things back to basics, you will be surprised at the results. To finalise yes, hops can definitely add astringency. My lagers now generally use a high alpha hop for bittering just so I can reduce the amount of hop matter in the wort and kettle finishing hops are added no later than 20mins before flame out and even then not overdoing them.

 

[Goose]

Results are in.
Far better than the first attempt. Not a great beer, I'm assuming due to yeast treatment. Bottled brews are completely ruined by diacetyl and there is a hint of it in the kegged beer. Totally drinkable, very light and easy to knock back. Just lacks character I would associate with a pilsner. Unlike the first brew though, no off putting acidity.
Next time more yeast and fresher. 5l flask on the cards.

G'day Wiggs, am presuming you kegged some and bottled some from the same batch ?

I also presume that after fermentation, prior to racking to keg/bottle you could not taste any diacetyl ? If not did you try this test ?

 

[TheWiggman]

Right on all accounts. Haven't tried the test, are you suggesting I do this to the kegged beer?

 

[Goose]

no mate, but its a great test to do before you keg to determine if the diacetyl precursor AAS is present. Its tasteless, but if it is there it will rear its ugly head as diacetyl much later on .....

 

[Adr_0]

Maybe do this test around 1015-1020. A bit like acetaldehyde, it is reduced by more time on the yeast. You may be doing the d-rest too late, or potentially 'crashing' the yeast (which works well for ale yeasts once they are well and truly done) instead of gently bringing it down so that it can keep working.

The 34/70 / 2124? yeast is known for a fair chunk of diacetyl. I haven't used it for about 10 years, instead using Wyeast 2000 which produces much less diacetyl/AAL and has a better malt/hops profile (in my opinion).

Not sure if it helps, but I've attached profiles of the last two pilseners I've done which have had no diacetyl problems - though have both used Wyeast 2000:

 

[Black n Tan]

I think that you are underestimating the phenomenal buffering power of the mash. I don't think there is any need to acidify you sparge water unless your water supply is seriously alkaline. Then as soon as you add acid to neutralize the alkalinity you form a salt of some sort. If your water is that seriously alkaline you might be better using a different water source or buy a RO water purifier.
I have absolutely no problem making super clean lager beer using the simplest possible method of reaching my goal, the KISS principle if you like but paying very close attention to timing, temperature control and sanitation. I've made lagers many times using one malt, one hop, filtered town water and my chosen liquid yeast strain - no chemical adjustments whatsoever. They are super clean and free of astringency, graininess, sourness or any kind of fault, even when taste-tested at 20C
In my opinion if you strip things back to basics, you will be surprised at the results. To finalise yes, hops can definitely add astringency. My lagers now generally use a high alpha hop for bittering just so I can reduce the amount of hop matter in the wort and kettle finishing hops are added no later than 20mins before flame out and even then not overdoing them.

Agreed. I tried to fix something that wasn't broken and have inadvertently introduced a fault.

 

[TheWiggman]

That's about the profile I used Adr_0.
9°C for 3 days
10°C until 1.018 was hit
Increase 1°C/day until 17°C. Hold until FG (about 7 days by memory, 1.009)
Chill down 4°C/ day to 4°, held for 10 days
Chill to -0.5°C until about the 5 week mark.
I gave it the odd rouse towards the end. Hence why I'm pointing towards poor yeast health, if I had the right quantity of yeast diacetyl wouldn't be an issue, and in honesty it's not really an issue in the kegged beer anyway. Stressed yeast carries other problems which is overall making this an average beer rather than a good one.

 

[///]

Odd that diacetyl is more prominent in the bottled version than the kegged version. Diacetyl is very noticeable even in very tiny amounts in lagers and is generally caused by yeast not absorbing the chemical late in the fermentation cycle OR fermenting too cold in which case more diacetyl is produced than the yeast can re-absorb at the end of fermentation. Some strains produce more than others so it's worth checking this before choosing a yeast.

Kind sir, might be best to grab some of that reading other than a forum on things like VDK.

To make it easy the below link will sort you out. Anything you are not sure of just holla.

http://www.whitelabs.com/files/Diacetyl_Time_Line.pdf

If you have VDK in your beer as a homebrewer, you have really stuffed up. Stuffed fermentation, conditioning and yeast management. No excuses with this one at a HB level, so get cracking with the reading and sort it out.

 

[Adr_0]

That's about the profile I used Adr_0.
9°C for 3 days
10°C until 1.018 was hit
Increase 1°C/day until 17°C. Hold until FG (about 7 days by memory, 1.009)
Chill down 4°C/ day to 4°, held for 10 days
Chill to -0.5°C until about the 5 week mark.
I gave it the odd rouse towards the end. Hence why I'm pointing towards poor yeast health, if I had the right quantity of yeast diacetyl wouldn't be an issue, and in honesty it's not really an issue in the kegged beer anyway. Stressed yeast carries other problems which is overall making this an average beer rather than a good one.

How are you measuring temp, in-wort?

You really want a few points of gravity left when you start to cool it down into the lagering range, and cool down very gently. 4°C a day is probably a bit steep and might be the reason you had an under-attenuated lager another time (my two examples above were 13°C in 10 days and 11°C in 7 days). The risk of having a few points left is if you cool it too quickly and don't fully attentuate, leave diacetyl/acetaldehyde in the beer; however the reward if you cool it gently is a magnificently conditioned beer and confidence the yeast are actually doing something at lagering temps.

Still not sure why your bottles ended up buttery and not your keg. Did you bottle them earlier? Did you move any yeast across into the keg?

 

[Black n Tan]

Still not sure why your bottles ended up buttery and not your keg. Did you bottle them earlier? Did you move any yeast across into the keg?

The likely explanation is that diacetyl precursor, acetolactic acid, was present in the beer at the time of bottling, which was later oxidised to diacetyl (doesn't require the presence of yeast). So in the case of the bottles, the ideal condition are provided for the conversion of acetolactic acid to diacetyl: oxygen in the head space and the warmer conditions required for bottle conditioning. A forced diacetyl test prior to bottling will ensure the precursor is not present and avoid an unhappy face down the track.