Pilsner and acid adjustment

[TheWiggman]

Excellent. I have a level of ~335 mg/l so while high, that info is comforting.

Understood Nev, I noted that you and Wes didn't agree with acidulated malt content in pilsners. I have very little mineral content in my water so I'm going down the acid path this time.

Full steam ahead.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Excellent. I have a level of ~335 mg/l so while high, that info is comforting.

Understood Nev, I noted that you and Wes didn't agree with acidulated malt content in pilsners. I have very little mineral content in my water so I'm going down the acid path this time.

Full steam ahead.

Possibly he dont have the same water, I use it routinely and pull the big awards, not bragging just how I brew.
Each to their own.
Nev

 

[spudfarmerboy]

I've got tomorrow off and finally decided to brew this. I managed to get hold of some WLP800 pilsner yeast so rather than do a Bohemian pilsner, I'm going for a Czech Pilsner.

Is a Bohemian Pilsner very different to a Czech Pilsner?

 

[manticle]

no

 

[technobabble66]

i think the original meaning was: Bohemian = Czech

 

[manticle]

Original meaning where? Bohemia does = Czech or close enough to. Thus we are on the same page, I think.

 

[technobabble66]

Bohemia definitely = czech republic (well, close enough to the modern day republic).
But i think the hipsters & style critics have subverted bohemian to (also) mean some sort of shabby, raggedy alternative for dressed down rich kids or something. The bastards.
So i was just trying to clarify to SFB that he shouldn't mistake a Bohemian pils with a BoHo pils.
h34r: :lol: :unsure:

 

[spudfarmerboy]

Bohemia definitely = czech republic (well, close enough to the modern day republic).
But i think the hipsters & style critics have subverted bohemian to (also) mean some sort of shabby, raggedy alternative for dressed down rich kids or something. The bastards.
So i was just trying to clarify to SFB that he shouldn't mistake a Bohemian pils with a BoHo pils.
h34r: :lol: :unsure:

The point I was trying to make was why did Wiggman decide to make a Czech pilsner rather than a Bohemian pilsner when they are the same beer.
Nothing to do with those pesky hipsters.

 

[TheWiggman]

The Wiggman did it because he found Czech pils yeast on special, and had Czech saaz hops in the freezer.
And JW pilsner malt, making the whole point a bit moot.
I believe if I was using Bo pils malt and Bohemian yeast (as I originally intended/ordered but never arrived) then this that would be a Bohemian pilsner. Though as has been said to my knowledge they are very similar styles.
My main concern was about minimising minerals for a pilsner by using acid and whether this is is more beneficial to the flavour. I probably threw this out the window using Aussie malt but I can still use this as a basis for comparison.

 

[yankinoz]

Well, even myself and John Palmer were taken in by the myth that brewing water HAS to include at least 50 ppm calcium. There are a number factors that are cited and yeast health and flocculation are primary. Apparently, nobody ever really did the research to confirm those factors. It turns out that there is ample research in a variety of scientific journals that completely refute the need for brewing water to include calcium for yeast health. In fact, the research goes further and points out that high calcium in the absence of magnesium can actually harm yeast health.

Fortunately, typical barley and wheat malt provide magnesium and calcium to wort in the proper ratio. Not surprisingly, yeast have evolved to prefer the high magnesium content and relatively low calcium content of typical wort. The Mg to Ca ratio of typical wort is between 2 and 6 parts Mg to 1 part Ca. This is without the additional Mg or Ca that may be supplied by the water.

It also turns out that Ca has the ability to strip Mg from yeast cells. That is a bad thing since yeast need Mg more than they need Ca. In fact, if the yeast become Mg deficient, than can lose the ability to ferment maltose and maltotriose. Lager yeast are particularly susceptible to this, while ale yeast is not.

But this not to say that calcium has no place in brewing water. It turns out that calcium's role in flocculation is very real. In addition, it has a real role in reducing beerstone in the brewery by precipitating out the calcium oxalate from the wort in the tun. For ale brewing, calcium is necessary. The 50 ppm minimum Ca is a reasonable target for ales. But the picture changes for lagers. Since they rely more on long lagering, they are far less dependent on flocculation than an ale is. So they can be brewed with low calcium water. That is one reason why you often hear that the megabrewers use water with very little mineralization. They don't need calcium and as pointed out above, adding calcium could make the yeast Mg deficient and this may create fermentation problems for the lager yeast.

So, the water that the OP listed above should be fine for lager brewing. No need to add calcium unless you want the flavor ions that are attached to the calcium or want to reduce beerstone problems in your brewing. There is no detriment to yeast health when brewing with low calcium water!

I'll second all the above. Pilsner Urquell is reportedly made with very soft water and no salts are added. But in the case at hand the water is somewhat alkaline. If nothing is done, the pH of the mash will be too high for good conversion. So use acidulated malt or lactic acid. I'd go with the lactic, since it's what makes acid malt acidic, and Australia won't likely extradite you for violations of the German purity laws.

 

[TheWiggman]

Well a bit over 2 months later and I've taken a taste. The results are in:

Utter crap.

I didn't win at all with this one. It only got down to 1.016 (target was 1.009), I recently found out I was using the wrong polyclar so it's cloudy as shit, and it has one huge major flaw - tastes like acid. The comments earlier about it not being detectable, well it is in this one. On my first sip I found it a bit offensive, and after a few sips it finally clicked: it has a sour, acidic taste which lingers. Then I remembered this thread, and cast my mind back to when I was brewing it. ~8ml of acid used overall. Very similar lingering taste as per my comments when I sampled the MT water.

Major takeaways from this -

• Step mashing was ineffective. I didn't do any starch tests so I think I didn't have my recirc flow high enough to allow decent conversion.
• Didn't oxygenate because I didn't have the gear. Would have helped FG down a bit.
• Didn't have a pH meter so was flying blind.
• Very high water pH (7.6) not suited for pilsners.
• I'm suspicious of underpitching. Even though I had 2 vials, I'm not confident they fermented out fully before I decanted and pitched the yeast. They were also 4 months old.

The sad thing is in the back of my mind I thought all the above, but hoped it wouldn't matter anyway. Wrong again. Before re-attempting I'll get hold of a pH meter and focus a bit more on the ferment. Maybe consider an RO unit, but not for a while yet.
Sadly, this is keg #2 that the lawn's going to claim. You live and learn.

 

[spudfarmerboy]

That's a shame.
You've certainly had some trouble with your brews over the short time you have been brewing.
I remember you posting about the plastic taste in your first half dozen or so brews, I think you had used the wrong thread sealant or something similar.
Then your ales all had a toffee taste (diacyetal?).
Then the keg with the "lavender/perfumey" scent and now the sour taste.
As long as you learn from your mistakes all is not lost.

 

[Dan Pratt]

Try rain water next time and add your minerals to get the pilsner profile. Off the top of my head the ezibrew xls available online for free has <10ppm for each.

 

[TheWiggman]

Haha, I must have an entertaining web presence. You are right, but there have been some winners in between.

Plastic taste was a fault all of my own
Diacetyl was a problem but I keg my beers so only affected a handful of longnecks (and a whole batch my mate fermented)
Lavender/perfume keg was given back to the keg doner and he's enjoying it more than I did, so all's well.

Am certainly learning and haven't made the same mistake twice.

Agreed Pratty. I have an ESB ready for the weekend (very appropriate for Australia Day :blink which used rainwater for the sparge. I filtered it but it had a green tinge to it in the pot. First samples taste very promising though. Before going it for the whole brew I might invest in QldKev's cheap fridge filter option.

 

[Mardoo]

Dude, that's heartbreaking. Kind of. Ya know, in the FWP kind of way. But I would be gutted. For a short time. Or a week. Or two. I've been following this thread since you started it. I'm about to embark on my first string of lagers.

BTW what was the wrong polyclar you used?

 

[TheWiggman]

Look it sucks but I've got decent HB at home which means 1) I can brew decent beer under controlled conditions and 2) and I can drown my sorrows with it. Isn't the first, won't be the last. If you haven't failed you haven't tried hard enough.

Big takeaway from this (for me) is you can certainly overdo the acid. Go back to the start of the thread with the discussion between acid malt and lactic acid, and it tended away from using acidulated malt (wessmith) and towards acidulated malt (Nev). Then it was about how much can be added, seemed I was in the safe zone, but I do know enough about beer tasting now that there was absolutely detectable acid sourness to the final product. 8ml in a 19l batch = too much. Coupled with the high FG there was absolutely nothing going for this beer except decent head.

Other things are that I need to work harder to get my FG down and I'm better set up for that now (O2, better managed starter, yeast nutrient, better mashing). All very good info for me as a home brewer, learnt the hard way but learnt nonetheless.

I used Polyclar 70/30+, does SFA for clearing out beer. Should have used PVPP.

 

[Mardoo]

Ah. Yeah, the PVPP works well but it has to be prepared correctly. Stirplate makes it a doddle.

I've used too much acid malt before and it's dropped out over time, but that obviously depends on how much too much and type of beer.

 

[fraser_john]

Try rain water next time and add your minerals to get the pilsner profile. Off the top of my head the ezibrew xls available online for free has <10ppm for each.

Yeah doing this is FAR easier than people think. I like the Brun Water spreadsheet as it shies away from adding anything to your sparge water that increases alkalinity, which reduces the chance of tannin extraction during the sparge.

I use Lactic acid 88% solution, diluted down to 11% solution so it is easier to measure for both mash and sparge. I do final mash adjustments after dough in and re-measuring with a pH meter.

The amounts I use for a Pilsner/Lager of each kind of salt vary from 0.4g to 4g depending on which one. But, it is very easy and worthwhile doing.

If you had a green tinge in your rain water, that is a bit of a worry LOL. I use a sediment filter & carbon filter combination on mine, it comes from brand new tanks, so is crystal clear, odorless and tests out at practically all minerals (had it by a pool/spa joint, not 100% accurate, but good enough).

<edit - fix spelling>

 

[labels]

Adding acid or using acidulated malt has a minimum affect on wort pH. You may get it drop a point maybe and that's all. The very powerful buffering effect of the natural acids in the wort will stabilize the pH within the desired range very tightly UNLESS you're making beer with a very high level of adjuncts such as rice. Even Yankinoz is not correct in saying higher alkaline water will raise the pH unless it's stupidly high. Most potable water supplies are deliberately alkaline. Alkaline water tastes nice giving it a slightly sweet taste. Neutral or acidic water tastes like shit. Most municipal water supplies are somewhere between pH7 and pH8 and if you make normal, adjunct free or low adjunct beer of mid strength and above I can guarantee your pH will be in the range pH5.2 to pH5.4 with no acid additions. Roast barley and dark grains will drop it a little.

I've made stacks of successful lagers without any adjustment to Adelaide's normal water supply (and you all know the reputation of Adelaide water) and I only use acidulated malt for the flavor component (in lagers the ever so slight sour acidic flavor can give the impression of the beer being crisper)

 

[Dunkelbrau]

I can tell you now an all pils mash will be higher than 5.2-5.4 with water sitting at 8.

The pH of pils malt is 5.8ish so it WILL buffer down, but you won't stabilize at 5.2-5.4 without acid additions which DO change the pH more than you say (personal experience).