Pilsner and acid adjustment

[labels]

In a normal mash (as I described above) pH should be least of your problems. Only when the pH of the water is abnormally high, your grist:water ratio is too high or high levels of adjuncts do you really need to consider pH an issue.

When it can be an issue is during the sparge. Because you are weakening the buffering power in the mash as you sparge (fly or batch) I would suggest at that point you may want to add a minute amount of acid to the sparge water if the pH of your water is abnormally high. High pH in the sparge (maybe coupled with over-hot sparge water) can lead to tannin extraction which, of course leads to astringency.

If you're going to measure pH at any stage I would suggest to use a quality pH test strip. Those cheap Chinese pH meters are crap.

In any case I suggest the use of acids (phosphoric or lactic) be used extremely sparingly. Acidulated malt will have a minimal (but measurable) effect on mash pH but may help with not allowing the sparge pH to rise too much - but then a drop or two of Phos in the sparge water will achieve the same result.

 

[Dunkelbrau]

As I said, an all pils mash will hit around 5.8 pH. That is too high. Acid adjustments fix that.

The pH of the mash changes enzyme activity.

I run on a 3:1 or maybe 2.5:1 L:G and in small or large batches for pale and even some brown beers (depending on what I'm doing with the water with regards to alkalinity) I nearly always add acid malt to my mash.

I also have observed hundreds of straight sparges with 78 degree acid free water onto a grain bed that was 5.2 10 mins after mashing in. The final runnings were never higher than 5.6.

I'd say mash pH is key to accurate, reproducible conversion that works how it is expected. And adding acid to sparge on an as needed basis. 5.9mls of lactic in my experience and opinion is too much for sparge treatment.

A few hundred grand of acid malt would have fixed the issue and the sparge runnoff being observed (gravity and pH) would let you know if you need to add acid next time for sure. (It also gives you a gauge to how much).

I use a freshly calibrated Hanna pH meter and cool all samples to room temp.

 

[TheWiggman]

Note I added 1.9ml to sparge water, which is still high. Main reason was to do an 85°C as the a thread I linked earlier which Steve/labels started. 5.3 ml was added to the mash, which is heaps. And acid malt. I'd say this is the real downfall in the final product.
This was all calculated on Brunwater and I'll point out again that actual figures were not confirmed with a meter (except water pH done with a fish tank test kit).
I've done a lager, 95% pils with acid malt or salt using 7.6 pH water and it turned out fine.
I think I have some yeast slurry left so in going to give this another whirl this weekend I think, with changes being -

• Minimal adjustment to sparge using lactic acid (i.e about 0.5ml as I have done with other brews)
• Salts, as per earlier thread suggestions?
• Single sacc rest, no steps
• Normal fly sparge with 78°C water

I'll use similar quantities of acidulated malt in the mash. It won't be the grainy pilsner I might have wanted but who knows, maybe it will be? Surely this one will turn out well so will be a basis to build on technique at a later date.

In a normal mash (as I described above) pH should be least of your problems. Only when the pH of the water is abnormally high, your grist:water ratio is too high or high levels of adjuncts do you really need to consider pH an issue.

Steve this beckons the question - if it has minimal effect, why does it appear to have a significant effect when put in the spreadsheet? A 200g addition will drop a raw water (i.e. no added salts) mash pH from 5.8 to 5.4. Everything I've seen or read implies that mash pH is a critical part of brewing.

 

[TheWiggman]

Note that regarding sparge water I originally calculated a desired sparge pH of 5.6 (just checked my spreadsheet). Don't ask me why. This explains the seemingly large addition, which should have been around the 0.9ml mark.

 

[TheWiggman]

Gents... a moment for one of our fallen please.

 

[Goose]

what an interesting thread.

Wiggs if I may ask, do you filter your water at all ?

 

[TheWiggman]

Negative, straight from the tap.

 

[Goose]

You are probably expecting me to tell you go buy one, but just curious, can you taste the difference in your tap water vs a bottle of distilled water ?

I invested in a relatively low cost 7 stage unit and the change in taste of the water was amazing. Tapwater here has a Ph of around 7.7 but after filtration its neutral according to my pH meter.

Its one of these, though not sure if available down under. originally I just hooked it up to the tap and pulled it out each time I brewed, but I found the water quality so good I got it installed under sink with some plumbing that allows me to filter water when I want to (no sense to use filtered water for washing up right).

if you can taste the difference in your tap water vs a bottle of distilled water maybe invest a few bux and try a brew with distilled water (not mineral water ) to see if it is indeed the minerals or other components that make pils brewing a challenge.

where I am the water supply is all surface water and as such extremely soft, hence ideal for pils brewing. I have been told that the utilities board here do add some hydroxide in there to raise pH a bit to prevent pipe corrosion, but that's about it. However god knows what other crap is picked up in the network of pipes and pumps before it hits the tap. I know in your case you tested water ex tap though, its a great thing to know.

for my pils I add about 1% acidulated malt to the grain bill, my Mash PH is 5.4 each time so I don't bother to test anymore. I add no calcium or any other mineral. Of course the flipside is when I brew an ale, I have some chalk (for chloride) and gypsum (for sulphate) available at hand for style adjustments depending on whether I want to bring out malt or hops character.

 

[manticle]

Chalk won't give you chloride.

 

[Goose]

quite right old chap. Sorry, calcium chloride not calcium carbonate (chalk). The latter for raising pH of the mash if need be.

 

[manticle]

Thought it was probably just a typo.
Have a read about the insolubility of chalk and subsequent reduced effect additions actually have on pH if you're interested.
Brun water knowledge and braukaiser both have good sections.

 

[Goose]

LOL brain not engaged at early hours cross referencing common names with chemical compound names, my bad. Afraid Calcium Chloride has no common name that I am aware of.

but then I am a goose.

 

[TheWiggman]

I've seen your posts before, not a goose

 

[sean_0]

Thought it was probably just a typo.
Have a read about the insolubility of chalk and subsequent reduced effect additions actually have on pH if you're interested.
Brun water knowledge and braukaiser both have good sections.

Anybody else having trouble with braukaiser? Haven't been able to access it this week

 

[manticle]

Just checked - looks all ****** up. Hopefully temporary.

 

[seamad]

It's done funny things in the past for me as well, slightly different version of fukd this time, just when I was wanting to check some stuff out too...

 

[TheWiggman]

Righto folks doing this one again tomorrow. Will be celebrating Australia drinking ESB and making a pilsner.

4kg JW pilsner
150 acidulated (3.8%) up from 60g
Hop additions as per before, maybe will use up some hallertauer hersbrucker flowers left in the freezer to the same IBU (25).

DIFFERENCES:
Yeast nutrient
Single 63°C sacc rest, up to 72 etc.
O2 prior to yeast
NO acid or salt additions.

I played around with the salt a bit and it will only make 0.1 pH difference or thereabouts. I figure it's not worth it, I'll minimise minerals and then give it another go at a later date to see the difference. Estimated mash pH will be 5.5.
2.5l WLP800 is on the stir plate now recultured from last brew. Whoa, it is going NUTS. Krausen in first 12h before I even put on the stir plate, and now it's threatening to climb out the top. A hit of O2 and yeast nutrient has done wonders.

Looking forward to reporting back.

 

[Black n Tan]

Looks good wiggman. I use 4% acidulated in my pils regularly and certainly can't taste the lactic acid.

 

[Weizguy]

Righto folks doing this one again tomorrow. Will be celebrating Australia drinking ESB and making a pilsner.

4kg JW pilsner
150 acidulated (3.8%) up from 60g
Hop additions as per before, maybe will use up some hallertauer hersbrucker flowers left in the freezer to the same IBU (25).

DIFFERENCES:
Yeast nutrient
Single 63°C sacc rest, up to 72 etc.
O2 prior to yeast
NO acid or salt additions.

I played around with the salt a bit and it will only make 0.1 pH difference or thereabouts. I figure it's not worth it, I'll minimise minerals and then give it another go at a later date to see the difference. Estimated mash pH will be 5.5.
2.5l WLP800 is on the stir plate now recultured from last brew. Whoa, it is going NUTS. Krausen in first 12h before I even put on the stir plate, and now it's threatening to climb out the top. A hit of O2 and yeast nutrient has done wonders.

Looking forward to reporting back.

Need a bigger flask, Wiggman.
Best of luck

 

[TheWiggman]

I'll heed that advice and bump this one up on the purchase list.
Overall brew day went very well. Being Australia day the latter part of the day was a bit fuzzy. I do recall cubing the boiled wort, must have added all ingredients because there were none left on the bench, recall squeezing the cube so must have got around 20l, but have no recollection of cleaning the kettle so I think the shed will be in a bit of a state.

OG remains to be seen. First runnings were 1.068 so should be good.