Pet Bottles, Environmental Disaster?

[bum]

I hear similar arguments often and will never understand them. I don't know anyone who would drink bottled water at home and we should be encouraging people to drink water instead of coke when away from it.

 

[Nick JD]

Wow, AHB is accessible from Mars now ? I can only conclude that you haven't been living here on earth.

Edit:

Statement from the Aust Govt. Dept of Environment, Water & Heritage
In 2005, Australians used 3.92 billion lightweight single use high density polyethylene (HDPE) bags. 2.14 billion of these came from supermarkets, while the others were used by fast food restaurants, service stations, convenience stores and liquor stores and other shops.

So, you think this has no effect on the future of this planet ? Keep in mind this figure is for Australia only. Your consumption (and honestly, mine too) helps to make up these figures.

1.) Have you ever weighed a plastic shopping bag?

2.) What percentage of plastic shopping bags are reused by householders?

3.) Why don't you worry about people bringing absolutely every other food item in PET containers/wrappers home (and binning ... in their PET plastic bags), that weigh ten times what the plastic bags weigh?

4.) Or are you just trying to save my great great grandchildren from the PET Terminator that will become self-aware in 2026?

5.) What's 3.92 billion times 0.5 grams? Perhaps we should burn these bags and let another 0.0001% of our emissions come from natural gas instead of coal.

Perspective will help the environment more than greenies without the full picture. Putting plastic bags in landfill is keeping CO2 from the atmosphere. Irony is ironic sometimes.

 

[bum]

Wow

 

[tcraig20]

I think, in very broad environmental terms, using water from a rain tank and a man-made reservoir would have the same impact?

Unless, tanking water greatly reduces the amount of water available to evaporation and causes greater damage than dams? Way over my head, though.

Yeah, I can see your point there. But in another way, tank water doesnt go through the whole treatment process, so there is some environmental saving. How much though, Im not sure.

 

[jimi]

Anyone worried about PET bottles should start with boycotting bottled water. It's a amazing testament to the power of advertising that people will pay about 2000% more for a product thats virtually identical to what they have readily supplied at home

I hear similar arguments often and will never understand them. I don't know anyone who would drink bottled water at home and we should be encouraging people to drink water instead of coke when away from it.

Hi bum, I hope this doesn't sound rude mate but I'll try to explain the point further so you can understand it. The water we drink from our taps at home is dead cheap (less than 14c a litre) and virtually identical to the product people buy in bottles. If you fill a bottle from home when you leave (which you re-use over and over) which most people expect their children going off to school to do, you'll avoid having to pay a 2000% mark up and reduce the demand for bottles being produced and transported at the expense of the environment. Reduces your expenses and reduces the carbon production.

There's been a bit of misinfo going on here as there tends to be with this issue. Fact: Aussies PER CAPITA are among the worlds very biggest carbon producers - per person we are nearly twice as bad as China. Claiming that our total production is relatively low is only avoiding our personal responsibility!! We don't need to live in a cave drinking dew and eating moss to live responsibily and keep our carbon footprint in check. If your a brewer using PET bottles, take a little time to clean and re-use and better still become confident at identifying the end of a fermentation and start using glass bottles which can be re-used far more often.

 

[Renegade]

As stated in a book I recently read on the sinister drive behind modern marketing, went something like "The water is free, but the brand will cost you $2 a bottle". And that was from a marketing industry leader's mouth (speaking of Evian)

Brand association is a very powerful tool. "concepts' of bottle water among consumers are no different.

 

[tcraig20]

As stated in a book I recently read on the sinister drive behind modern marketing, went something like "The water is free, but the brand will cost you $2 a bottle". And that was from a marketing industry leader's mouth (speaking of Evian)

When I buy water, the motivating factor is almost always that it is refrigerated. After all, a large chunk of the price of bottled water is retailer margin.

 

[bum]

Hi bum, I hope this doesn't sound rude mate but I'll try to explain the point further so you can understand it. The water we drink from our taps at home is dead cheap (less than 14c a litre) and virtually identical to the product people buy in bottles. If you fill a bottle from home when you leave (which you re-use over and over) which most people expect their children going off to school to do, you'll avoid having to pay a 2000% mark up and reduce the demand for bottles being produced and transported at the expense of the environment. Reduces your expenses and reduces the carbon production.

There's been a bit of misinfo going on here as there tends to be with this issue. Fact: Aussies PER CAPITA are among the worlds very biggest carbon producers - per person we are nearly twice as bad as China. Claiming that our total production is relatively low is only avoiding our personal responsibility!! We don't need to live in a cave drinking dew and eating moss to live responsibily and keep our carbon footprint in check. If your a brewer using PET bottles, take a little time to clean and re-use and better still become confident at identifying the end of a fermentation and start using glass bottles which can be re-used far more often.

My turn to risk sounding rude (which you weren't at all and I'm not trying to be) by furthering my point - why are you singling out water? Bung in 2c worth of syrup and you've got Coke. Identical impact and identical profit for the producer (based on my assumption of the five time filtering process used on bottled water costing something similar to the flavouring process of any other competing beverage). Your point of bringing water from home is a valid one (one which I think JC has countered pretty successfully above, however) but it argues equally against all such beverages for sale, not just water.

As for China versus Australia, yes, per capita we are much bigger polluters. I agree completely that we should be doing more about it. Much more. Having said that, even under ideal conditions, we're always going to be bigger polluters than the Chinese (again, per capita) because their populations live much more densely than we do. Perhaps if we shut down anything not on the east coast (and anything north of Brisbane) and make everyone move over here we might have a chance of equalling them.

I don't think there would be any PET bottlers who are not re-using them many times. With the possible exception of those who re-use the 2lt bottles? Dunno.

 

[jimi]

My turn to risk sounding rude (which you weren't at all and I'm not trying to be) by furthering my point - why are you singling out water? Bung in 2c worth of syrup and you've got Coke. Identical impact and identical profit for the producer (based on my assumption of the five time filtering process used on bottled water costing something similar to the flavouring process of any other competing beverage). Your point of bringing water from home is a valid one (one which I think JC has countered pretty successfully above, however) but it argues equally against all such beverages for sale, not just water.

As for China versus Australia, yes, per capita we are much bigger polluters. I agree completely that we should be doing more about it. Much more. Having said that, even under ideal conditions, we're always going to be bigger polluters than the Chinese (again, per capita) because their populations live much more densely than we do. Perhaps if we shut down anything not on the east coast (and anything north of Brisbane) and make everyone move over here we might have a chance of equalling them.

I don't think there would be any PET bottlers who are not re-using them many times. With the possible exception of those who re-use the 2lt bottles? Dunno.

Hi Bum- I'm singling out water as we all have it on tap at less than 14c / ltr and free of charge at random water fountains / taps. We can also fridge / freeze our water at home if we want. Takes the smallest amount of effort and saves $$ and lowers our environmental impact. As I said we don't have to live in caves and we certainly don't have to give up our brewing / bottling, it just helps a lot if we are smarter about it.

 

[tcraig20]

Hi Bum- I'm singling out water as we all have it on tap at less than 14c / ltr and free of charge at random water fountains / taps.

Sorry, I really dont mean to be pedantic, but I think you mean 14 cents a kilolitre.

At 14 cents a litre, you'd be looking at a $15 shower.

 

[Nick JD]

It's easy to become preoccupied with the tribvialities of limited resource consumption (and distribution) and think that a few plastic bags or not buying bottled water is doing anything at all. In the bigger scheme of things it's like sandbagging for an approaching tsunami.

But is the sky really falling? Are we pulling apart the planet one plastic bag at a time? Or are we just seeing the surface of the situation, concerned with things that won't change what's already happening ... but make us feel like we are doing something?

Each person puts out tonnes of CO2 each year. Sure, Aussies are bad at it, but this is almost entitrely because of cheap coal.

Here's the thing: For the entire world to have our standard of living we need FOUR MORE EARTHS.

Almost every war ever has been ultimately about natural resources. If you were in one of the world's highest positions of power, and could see the bull being led into the china shop, would you say, "I think we need to make the rich of the world feel guilty about using all the resources, because pretty soon - the poor will try to take it from them."

Sure, the weather might get warmer and those who bought seaside property will not be leaving it to their grandkids ... but the bigger picture is about Resource Distribution and Equality.

Don't use plastic bags if that makes you feel happy ... but there ain't enough fuel for 8 billion cars. Full stop. Either we've got to drive something else -- or point a gun and defend what we have, or just bloody share like Mum and Dad taught us.

Global warming has nothing to do with temperature.

 

[bum]

Wow

 

[Renegade]

Wow

Yea, his concepts are intense, huh.

 

[tcraig20]

Here's the thing: For the entire world to have our standard of living we need FOUR MORE EARTHS.

Almost every war ever has been ultimately about natural resources. If you were in one of the world's highest positions of power, and could see the bull being led into the china shop, would you say, "I think we need to make the rich of the world feel guilty about using all the resources, because pretty soon - the poor will try to take it from them."

Sure, the weather might get warmer and those who bought seaside property will not be leaving it to their grandkids ... but the bigger picture is about Resource Distribution and Equality.

Ill be the last one to stand in the way of anyone who wants to help their fellow man and make the world a better place, however, I dont really have much time for the argument that we need to forcibly redistribute wealth to prevent people committing violence against us.

You are right: most wars are fought ultimately over resources. But it is rarely, if ever, the common man who enjoys the spoils of war. War happens when the common man is tricked into dying for the wealth and power of a tiny elite.

This is a long way from water bottles isnt it?

 

[jimi]

Hi Bum- I'm singling out water as we all have it on tap at less than 14c / ltr and free of charge at random water fountains / taps.

Sorry, I really dont mean to be pedantic, but I think you mean 14 cents a kilolitre.

At 14 cents a litre, you'd be looking at a $15 shower.

Your right JC I dropped a 'k'

It's easy to become preoccupied with the tribvialities of limited resource consumption (and distribution) and think that a few plastic bags or not buying bottled water is doing anything at all. In the bigger scheme of things it's like sandbagging for an approaching tsunami.

But is the sky really falling? Are we pulling apart the planet one plastic bag at a time? Or are we just seeing the surface of the situation, concerned with things that won't change what's already happening ... but make us feel like we are doing something?

Each person puts out tonnes of CO2 each year. Sure, Aussies are bad at it, but this is almost entitrely because of cheap coal.

Here's the thing: For the entire world to have our standard of living we need FOUR MORE EARTHS.

Almost every war ever has been ultimately about natural resources. If you were in one of the world's highest positions of power, and could see the bull being led into the china shop, would you say, "I think we need to make the rich of the world feel guilty about using all the resources, because pretty soon - the poor will try to take it from them."

Sure, the weather might get warmer and those who bought seaside property will not be leaving it to their grandkids ... but the bigger picture is about Resource Distribution and Equality.

Don't use plastic bags if that makes you feel happy ... but there ain't enough fuel for 8 billion cars. Full stop. Either we've got to drive something else -- or point a gun and defend what we have, or just bloody share like Mum and Dad taught us.

Global warming has nothing to do with temperature.

Hi JD - We're getting a long way from PET bottles now, but I'm unsure of your position / point. You've acknowledged that the rest of the world can't afford to consume like we do but you seem hesitant to endorse individual responsibilty. To my thinking the approach has got to be 'if people are following your example, it better be a good one. I don't think people should need to wait until coal prices are huge and pollutants taxed to act and God forbid 'war' becomes an option.
Reducing our consumption changes distribution.