Partigyle questions

[tarmael]

Hey all,

First up, how many here actually practice Partigyle brewing over doing a single mash or sparge and adding it to your kettle?

I have a question on the technique and am wondering if this will work as expected or if I'll need a few other additions to boost it.

I recently upgraded to double batches. I have a 70L kettle, 60L carboy, 19L kettle, 30L carboy (see where I'm going with this?) a burner big enough and a mash tun.

Wondering if I do a (first up, what's the AUS standard double-batch size. 46L?) 46L batch, then remash for the partigyle aiming for 23L will I have enough efficiency for a 3-5% (3-4% would be ideal) small brew from a standard double batch mash?

Would I need to be aiming for a big beer (7+%) on my first run or can I have a 5-6% beer given I'm doing a double to single partigyle?

Considerations:
If I have to have a big beer from my first run I'm happy to add extra grains in for my second mash. Does anyone have any experience in this? 1-2kg added to the mash tun is fine.
If it's too low, throw in some DME, all good mate.

 

[Yob]

Have you looked in the partigyle thread where there have been many questions and answers?

 

[dr K]

At the risk of being unthreaded, Partigyle holds some interest for me.
I just did a search for the PG thread and found (as would be expected) many threads (and many many different opinions).
FWIW here are my thoughts:
Like most techniques partigyle can be interpreted in many ways.
Last year I was able to have private tour of Fullers in London, who still do partigyle, just like they always have.
Simply put, my observation was along the lines of one mash, two boils, three beers.
Here at home I do not have the luxury of three beer capability, so its one mash, two boils , one beer
Cons: (from my method)..it takes time, you need more fermenter space, planning is involved .....
Pros: (from my method) you do get an increase in efficiency, not that I care.
I could probably (and I will in the spring) do a 1/2/2 and have two beers, a stronger and lighter.
The important point that I making is that it is all about pre-fermentation blending (even if only to make a single beer)

K

 

[Markbeer]

Google BYO partigyle and there is a nice article including calcs in it.

I do them when doing a 12% plus beer.

My first beer will be 12%, second 6%. You don't need a second kettle. You can boil, transfer, sparge and boil again.

With a 3V system it's easy.

The first beer is so rich, the second, if very low gravity can get tannic.

Adding more grains for the second sparge is called "capping the mash." I have found crystal works well to add some body and richness to offset what is lost in second runnings.

You would really only learn it if you liked your big beers.

It's a very efficient way of brewing. For me it's not about getting the most out of grains but out of TIME.

 

[Yob]

If you just want BIG go reiterated not partigyle

 

[MHB]

You should be able to get all the control you want by adjusting your mash L:G to target the pre boil OG of your first half, then use your remaining water to sparge and make up the second wort.
There is a simple little formula that helps to hit the first running's gravity, it works in oP and you need to know or work out the Coarse Grind As Is (CGAI) yield potential of your malt. Say you wanted an OG of 1.080 (20oP) after a 90 minute boil that is going to evaporate 15% your first runnings would need to be 20= X*0.85 = 17oP. If your malts CGAI is 77%. Remember that 77% is 0.77 and 17oP is 0.17

The basic equation is. oP first runnings = CGAI / (L:G + CGAI). Rearranging the equation and L:G=(0.77/0.17)-0.77. L:G = 3.76:1

Don't forget that you will get about 2% evaporation during the mash and the 0.9ish L of water will stay in 1kg of grain and its pretty easy to work out how many kg's of grist you will need mashed at 3.76:1 to give you any given quantity of first runnings at any target gravity (in this example 17oP)
Mark

Yob
You could partigyle a reiterated mash...
M

 

[Yob]

Yob
You could partigyle a reiterated mash...
M

twice

 

[MHB]

Snip...
I could probably (and I will in the spring) do a 1/2/2 and have two beers, a stronger and lighter.
The important point that I making is that it is all about pre-fermentation blending (even if only to make a single beer)

K

Dr K
Sorry I just don't know why anyone would do a partigyle to make 1 beer nor why you would blend before fermenting. As far as I know fullers produce two worts, ferment separately and blend to make 3 (or more) beers.
Unless I'm missing something, if you were only making 1 beer wouldn't you just keep sparging until you hit your preboil gravity.
Mark

 

[Tilt]

@ MHB, is CGAI the same as potential yield data provided with malt?

 

[MHB]

Depends on the Cert of Analysis
Nearly all show Dry Fine, Moisture, some Coarse/Fine difference, what you need is
Dry Fine - Moisture - C/F = CGAI
Some notably Weyermann report Coarse air dry which is the same thing, some Coarse Dry and Moisture so you have to do some of the maths.

I do wish they would all get their heads together and all report the same things in the same terms - yes I know I'm dreaming no need to tell me.
Mark

Edit
Should have said if F/G isn't included use 1.5%. it will generally be between 1-2% more than 2% would indicate undermodified malt (rare these days) less than 1% over modified equally rare.
M

 

[klangers]

@ MHB, is CGAI the same as potential yield data provided with malt?

Some use course grind, some use fine grind. Some even use the difference between the two as an indication of conversion % (smaller difference indicates that the malting process has successfully broken down the internal structure so we can get access to our enzymes and starch). Like a lot of things it's different in EU/UK/USA. Australia's a bit of a mix.

I believe the standard lab test for malt is simply a single infusion held at 60 degrees for a set period of time. Imagine a beaker on a hot plate. Obviously this is not the most efficient mash regime, but since they are worried about QA they follow a set, standardised procedure that is easy to replicate. This is why you can get >100% conversion efficiency in the brewhouse.

 

[MHB]

The now largely defunct IOB test was a simple single temperature infusion @ 10:1
Most people use the "Congress Mash" which is stepped both L:G and temperature.
View attachment Congress Mash.PDF
Mark

 

[Tilt]

Righto - thanks. Good to know. I'm not sure I'll grapple with that calc. in the near future. Probably stick to the rule of thumb that's worked well for the few partigyles I've done, i.e. for a given mash, 50% of the extract comes in the first third run off the second 50% in the next 2/3. I Then adjust boil length or dilutions to deliver the required OG.
Edit to add detail

 

[dr K]

Dr K
Sorry I just don't know why anyone would do a partigyle to make 1 beer nor why you would blend before fermenting. As far as I know fullers produce two worts, ferment separately and blend to make 3 (or more) beers.
Unless I'm missing something, if you were only making 1 beer wouldn't you just keep sparging until you hit your preboil gravity.
Mark

I actually find that by doing two mashes and two boils and then blending (ok mixing) I get a more complex beer. This has been noted by others who have tasted the product.
My process (and have used both my RIMS and a little single vessel jobby..RoboBrew) is to do a first mash or runnings at a standard English L:G, run off, boil with hop additions using the Tinseth method to account for gravity, cool, run into a stainless fermentor, then do the second shorter mash, boil as above and mix.
Fullers, as I noted indeed produce three beers from two separately boiled worts and one mash (1/2/3).
K

EDIT: Fullers blend before they ferment. Absolutely.