Partigyle Attemp

[Gavo]

Well hardly a diff there hey. About all extra insulation would do is save a little power.


Gavo.

 

[gregs]

Ok so am I right in when my HERMS has achieved mash out temp I can immediately dump to kettle via the herms as long as the mash out temp, re- HERMS output remain stable as this will save time as in Im not recirculating then transferring to the kettle?

 

[chappo1970]

Woot happy as a pig in his own shyte! Hit 1089 with 1st runnings which is spot friggin on to recipe and calcs. Love my HERMS soooo predictable in end results!!!

 

[chappo1970]

Ok so am I right in when my HERMS has achieved mash out temp I can immediately dump to kettle via the herms as long as the mash out temp, re- HERMS output remain stable as this will save time as in I'm not recirculating then transferring to the kettle?

Exactly Greg

 

[bradsbrew]

Where is the digital Heat exchange temp being taken from Chap? Have you got some sort of thermowell in the recirc line??

Brad

 

[chappo1970]

Where is the digital Heat exchange temp being taken from Chap? Have you got some sort of thermowell in the recirc line??

Brad

Exactly brad sit on the outflow side of the Heat Exchange therefore never over shoots the wort temp

 

[gregs]

Thanks Chappo, Its great to talk to the herms brewers of the world, its a pleasing way to brew no doubt.

Youve inspired me to attempt a Partigyle, fantastic, thanks.

gregs.

 

[chappo1970]

Thanks Chappo, It's great to talk to the herm's brewers of the world, it's a pleasing way to brew no doubt.

You've inspired me to attempt a Partigyle, fantastic, thanks.

gregs.

No worries Greg enjoyed the interaction. Unfortunately we don't have an elitist thread like the BIABers :lol:

We just plod along making awesome beer.

 

[chappo1970]

I wonder what more insulation would do for the MLT? Certainly one could expect to see less difference in temp between the MLT and wort flow temp... yes/no?

Sorry Gavo I missed your Question. Wasn't intentional.

Ahhhh see you're thinking ass about like I did at first. The conversion is happening in the mash liquid not the grain bed so the grain bed because of termodynamics will run behind the rest of the system. Eventually it will catch up over a 60 plus mash time but you're not worried about that at the flow temp is were it's happening.

Cheers

Chap Chap

 

[Gavo]

Sorry Gavo I missed your Question. Wasn't intentional.

Ahhhh see you're thinking ass about like I did at first. The conversion is happening in the mash liquid not the grain bed so the grain bed because of termodynamics will run behind the rest of the system. Eventually it will catch up over a 60 plus mash time but you're not worried about that at the flow temp is were it's happening.

Cheers

Chap Chap

Na, I was just thinking like an impatient tight arse, liking the idea of getting to step temps quicker with less drain on electricity. Plus I do like the idea of temps matching in the exit of the heat exchanger and MLT as much as possible.... You now impatient, tight arsed, pedantic person I am. By the way us simple 3V non pump types can get reliable numbers also.

Gavo

 

[chappo1970]

...By the way us simple 3V non pump types can get reliable numbers also.

Gavo

I know ya can but HERMS certainly takes the anxiety and stress out of it

BTW 2nd runnings is now a Ordinary Bitter got 45lts @ 1056 B)
1st running 1089 watered down to a nice 1.060 ESB

Tehehehe

Thanks to Screwy for recipe assistance and Kirem for putting the silly idea of a partigyle into my weak head!

Chap Chao

 

[davewaldo]

Wow chappo! Sounds like you've got two good sized brews from one mash! Nice work!

I'm going to have to give this a try. One question? What do you do with second runnings while boiling the first? Cube? Leave in mashtun?

Good seeing you this arv and thanks again for the loan of your chiller.

Oh and what time did you end up finishing the brews?

 

[chappo1970]

Wow chappo! Sounds like you've got two good sized brews from one mash! Nice work!

I'm going to have to give this a try. One question? What do you do with second runnings while boiling the first? Cube? Leave in mashtun?

Good seeing you this arv and thanks again for the loan of your chiller.

Oh and what time did you end up finishing the brews?

Same here mate. Thanks for the passion mead. Gunna save it for the right day.

Just finished up now with the brewery all clean!

I held the second runnings in 2 cubes. They were only at 73C by the time I started to drop them in for the 2nd boil. Looong brew day at 7hrs but 2 x 50-ish lt brews aint bad.

Chap Chap

 

[Ross]

I know ya can but HERMS certainly takes the anxiety and stress out of it

BTW 2nd runnings is now a Ordinary Bitter got 45lts @ 1056 B)
1st running 1089 watered down to a nice 1.060 ESB

Tehehehe

Thanks to Screwy for recipe assistance and Kirem for putting the silly idea of a partigyle into my weak head!

Chap Chao

Chappo, 1056 is still ESB territory, unless you are watering that down as well?

Sounds like a top brew day.

cheers Ross

 

[Screwtop]

Chappo, thanks for showing pictorially what I have been trying to splain for ages :lol: Great help for any newb HERM_Boys.

Watching the Partigyle with interest, doing double batches is what I like to do, but it takes me so long to get through em these days, two kegs of the same beer becomes a bit boring frankly. Have been using different yeasts for a little difference between beers. Making two different beers per batch, now that interests me. May end up a Partigyle Pimp just like you :lol:

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[chappo1970]

Chappo, thanks for showing pictorially what I have been trying to splain for ages :lol: Great help for any newb HERM_Boys.

Watching the Partigyle with interest, doing double batches is what I like to do, but it takes me so long to get through em these days, two kegs of the same beer becomes a bit boring frankly. Have been using different yeasts for a little difference between beers. Making two different beers per batch, now that interests me. May end up a Partigyle Pimp just like you :lol:

Cheers,

Screwy

Partigyle pimp :lol: Classic!

Yeah I was watching the guages (i know I shouldn't have been before you blast me Screwy) and thought I better capture that so the next guy we have hitting the HERMies Club I could show them what you mean. Interesting though how you have to change your way of thinking and like Gavo (no offence mate) illustrated it takes a bit to get your head around the whole HERMS concept.

Actually the partigyle was a good one to start the brewing year off with as it had me back being neverous and anxious. It had me watching every little detail, mash temps, water volumes, timings, gravities etc. Also had me reading and re-reading information on the techniques on the fly. I should say the treacle and inverted sugars only went into the first runnings ESB for clarification.

Certainly will be doing it again but it will be interesting to see how they turn out.

BTW Screwy hit 75 secret business. Worked a treat!

Cheers

Chap Chap

Yes Ross watered it Ordinary Bitter back down to 1042.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Sorry Gavo I missed your Question. Wasn't intentional.

Ahhhh see you're thinking ass about like I did at first. The conversion is happening in the mash liquid not the grain bed so the grain bed because of termodynamics will run behind the rest of the system. Eventually it will catch up over a 60 plus mash time but you're not worried about that at the flow temp is were it's happening.

Cheers

Chap Chap

I really don't see the logic there, are you saying that there are no starches in the grain bed to convert? I'd be a bit worried about missing out on some of those starches and enzymes.

And another point, If the temp in your grain bed is lagging so far behind the wort that is circulating through your herms then it means your not circulating through your grain bed very effectively and you are more than likely channeling the wort down the sides of the tun and not through the grain bed which would be why your temps are so different.

After having a conversation with Gregs on Saturday about this issue I decided to test the theory myself, I did a fairly simple brew of a lite lager and added a good does of rice hulls to the grist to aid the flow, I kept my recirc at the usual flow rate. The grain bed lagged by about 2 during temp changes but settled at the correct temp within about 5 minutes. I also noticed that throughout the mash the grain bed was soft and not compacting at all, the rice hulls helped here and also a balanced recirculation speed.

When I have brewed without rice hulls I've noticed what you and Screwy report, a big difference between the grain bed temp and wort out temp that can take a long time to even out unless the mash is stirred, then it seems to even out pretty quickly again indicating poor flow through the grain bed.

So it seems that it might be more of an issue with poor circulation through the grain bed that is causing the mash to lag behind the HERMS so much and for so long and it's fairly easy to fix with rice hulls and balancing your circulation speed.
Does that make sense?

Cheers
Andrew

 

[chappo1970]

I really don't see the logic there, are you saying that there are no starches in the grain bed to convert? I'd be a bit worried about missing out on some of those starches and enzymes.

And another point, If the temp in your grain bed is lagging so far behind the wort that is circulating through your herms then it means your not circulating through your grain bed very effectively and you are more than likely channeling the wort down the sides of the tun and not through the grain bed which would be why your temps are so different.

After having a conversation with Gregs on Saturday about this issue I decided to test the theory myself, I did a fairly simple brew of a lite lager and added a good does of rice hulls to the grist to aid the flow, I kept my recirc at the usual flow rate. The grain bed lagged by about 2 during temp changes but settled at the correct temp within about 5 minutes. I also noticed that throughout the mash the grain bed was soft and not compacting at all, the rice hulls helped here and also a balanced recirculation speed.

When I have brewed without rice hulls I've noticed what you and Screwy report, a big difference between the grain bed temp and wort out temp that can take a long time to even out unless the mash is stirred, then it seems to even out pretty quickly again indicating poor flow through the grain bed.

So it seems that it might be more of an issue with poor circulation through the grain bed that is causing the mash to lag behind the HERMS so much and for so long and it's fairly easy to fix with rice hulls and balancing your circulation speed.
Does that make sense?

Cheers
Andrew

Actually does Andrew, Perfectly! Probably a poor choice of words on my behalf last night, it was a 7hr brew day lol! There are definitely enzymes and starches in the grain bed and there is conversion happening in there without a doubt. I guess my point was it is more important to watch the wort flow temp as there is two things happening there. One conversion at the right temperature and two you don't over shoot and denature your enzymes to early.

I doubt I am getting channeling as my grain bed is usually happily afloat with minimal flour on top plus I seem to hit target gravs and eff everytime without trying to be honest. The bed does lag thou by about 2C and certainly takes at least 30mins to catch up so I think your point is perfectly valid. I use rice hulls with wheat but to honest have keep the eye on the flow temp and not the grain bed so next brew I will try the rice hulls and see what happen and if there is a difference. But wouldn't it show up in the targets? Not doubting what you say, Andrew, but more of a serious WTF is happening?

 

[AndrewQLD]

Actually does Andrew, Perfectly! Probably a poor choice of words on my behalf last night, it was a 7hr brew day lol! There are definitely enzymes and starches in the grain bed and there is conversion happening in there without a doubt. I guess my point was it is more important to watch the wort flow temp as there is two things happening there. One conversion at the right temperature and two you don't over shoot and denature your enzymes to early.

I doubt I am getting channeling as my grain bed is usually happily afloat with minimal flour on top plus I seem to hit target gravs and eff everytime without trying to be honest. The bed does lag thou by about 2C and certainly takes at least 30mins to catch up so I think your point is perfectly valid. I use rice hulls with wheat but to honest have keep the eye on the flow temp and not the grain bed so next brew I will try the rice hulls and see what happen and if there is a difference. But wouldn't it show up in the targets? Not doubting what you say, Andrew, but more of a serious WTF is happening?

Probably not Chappo, as you rightly pointed out conversion is still happening in the grain bed even though it's at a slightly lower temp and once your sparge starts it all gets mixed back into the wort anyway, but the grain bed would have been converting at a lower temp than the wort giving a less dextrinous result, not that it really matters so long as you get the same results consistently.

My main point was with a properly set grain bed using hulls to aid wort flow and a balanced recirculation speed your grain bed temp should be pretty much in sync with your herms output temp with only a slight lag when stepping up.
As far as your grain bed and channeling goes it doesn't need to be a rock hard lump in the bottom of the tun to cause channeling, if your bed doesn't have enough flow points within it (ie. rice hulls help) and your recirc is too fast the wort will drain around the bed and not through it, at least that's what I have seen on my system.

Again it's really not that big a deal, once you know your system you will tailor your steps and temps to what suites your palate and end up with the results you like.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[chappo1970]

Yeah that is interesting. I use a sparge ring approx 220mm diameter which sits about 1" into the top of the grain bed. I start the HERMS flow strong to set the bed 5 mins max and then wind it back to about 1/4 open on the ball valve which I find is my happy medium and flow rate.

I'm wondering, actually guessing truth be known, that my sparge ring might the problem with lag. Stick with me here. The 60lt pot I use for a MLT is about 380mm wide sparge ring is 220mm so it sits about 80mm or 2 3/4" from the edge of the tun. So rather than getting channeling down the sides of the tun I'm thinking I am getting thru the centre of the grainbed instead. If you follow? See the temp gauge only penetrates the grain bed approx 120mm or 4" so if it is cooler at the point I have to concluded it channeling down the centre, no?

Anyway enjoying the discussion.

Chap Chap