Off Topic: Bulk Buy issues

[the_fuzz]

Let me ask you though, using your Harvey Norman principle, if you called Sony and asked them what their minimum wholesale order quantity was, and they told you 100 TVs... And you had 100 people that wanted to buy those TVs... Would you be content dealing through Harvey Norman to buy those TVs at a price that is somewhere between the wholesale and retail price? Most people would rather deal with Sony at a wholesale level. Of course, if Harvey Norman convinced Sony to disallow such an option you'd have no choice in the matter...

But the problem with the above is that Sony with flat out say no - There is generally no industry that will supply wholesale goods to a Non-Business entity. Food Stuffs seem to be the exception. It is not is a wholesalers interest to seel direct to the public - to you a pallet might be considered "wholesale quantities" but when Lion Nathan etc are buying by the Semi Load it changes the spectrum

I find it very hard to believe that Cryer don't want to deal with home brewers because its "too much trouble". If that was the case they'd simply increase their minimum order quantity. Seems much more likely to me that retailers who feel that these bulk buys are harming their retail sales have convinced cryer to stop supplying home brewers. It is this practice that I find a bit rough. Whether you agree is up to you.

Ross has advised what happened, so you are calling Ross a liar? As per the above, it is to much trouble for a wholesaler/manufacture to deal with the general public.

My beef is with the practice of artificially adding barriers to trade in any market -

Add barriers? You mean having to buy from a retailer, as opposed to the wholesaler? This is business

Sorry guy and TD, I just do not see what the problem here is, it is good business sense - the Wholesaler doesn't care about the consumer, they only have to keep the retailer happy.

In regards to storage, unfortunately I have none otherwise I would have bought 10 bags myself

 

[Fents]

Yay lets save a few bucks on grain (beer) that already costs us a third of the price to make rather than pay retail $40+ a slab for absolute shite beer.

Sorry not very helpfull or constructive, just the way i feel.

 

[redgums500]

The point is valid. Everytime something comes along for a reasonable price en-masse it always seems to have its market cornered.

Two things... Should be a buyer's market and secondly I'm starting to think posting one's intentions on an open forum has its limitations.

Like homebrewing itself. Stop it and it will go underground.

Warren -

Warren
You must have been living under a rock for quite sometime if you think the malt market (or any grain for that matter) is a buyers market. In a perfect utopian, socialist society, someone would grow the grain,then someone would malt the grain and give it to you for nothing, giving everyone that fuzzy lubby dubby feeling of helping you make the beer which you in turn you,provided to the masses for nothing ( well maybe you got them to mow the lawn of a weekend, and wash the bird poop off that red flag every now and then )
Fact of the matter is grain (any type of grain ) is in short supply world wide. Prices are on the up not because of conspiracys like yours and TD's, but because ALL food industries are competing to guarantee some supply this year. One would envisage that a large company like Cryer would not want to be buggerising around with 20kgs of malt when they have another chap on the phone wishing to order 300 tonne of the bloody stuff. It makes good business sense to pass the smaller retail sector onto a reseller who is set up and willing to handle such quantities. I've never met Ross and have not purchased anything from Craftbrewer but he has been exceptional as a source of knowledge to both myself and others on this forum. Some of you blokes really should get out more.

Redgums

 

[warrenlw63]

:lol: Certainly can see how you got your name. They'd be bright red now huh?

Warren -

 

[schooey]

Yay lets save a few bucks on grain (beer) that already costs us a third of the price to make rather than pay retail $40+ a slab for absolute shite beer.

Sorry not very helpfull or constructive, just the way i feel.

+1

I didn't get involved in this hobby to save a few dollars. I did it because I can brew MY beer to MY recipe when I want. I don't even own a mill. I'm happy just to cruise on down to MHB, buy my grain for what works out to be not so much more than what I can buy it for in a bulk buy, PLUS I get all the add ons...

Free advice on cracking, mashing etc
Free advice on ingredients in my recipe
Free Packaging so I can store it for a week or two if I want
I can get it same day delivery, 5 days a week
I can pick from a huge range of speciality ingredients in my recipes without having to buy/keep them all

anyway... the list goes on.

I know not everyone feels this way, but for the few extra dollars, I see VALUE in my system, compared to saving a few dollars the other way. I'm sure there are other more experienced brewers out there with differing opinions. At the end of the day, I don't mind if people that are providing me with excellent service are making a dollar, it means they will still be there to do it tomorrow when I need it again...

 

[warrenlw63]

I think a few of you blokes are misconstruing what T.D. and myself were getting at and composing your own personal odes to certain retailers.

We were merely questioning as to why Cryer's had suddenly shut their door to people wishing to "independently" purchase 20 sack minimums from them. All that being said if they did it for reasons only known to Cryer's and were in no way "cajoled" by other parties then I'm "more" than happy to go with the flow and participate in bulk-buys the way they're orchestrated now.

As usual though most blokes would rather type than actually read. Sometimes I can't say I blame them because lot of it is pure bumf that if used for more practical purposes would probably aggrovate one's hemorrhoids.

Warren -

 

[Fents]

At the end of the day, I don't mind if people that are providing me with excellent service are making a dollar, it means they will still be there to do it tomorrow when I need it again...

Legendary. B)

 

[T.D.]

Warren
You must have been living under a rock for quite sometime if you think the malt market (or any grain for that matter) is a buyers market. In a perfect utopian, socialist society, someone would grow the grain,then someone would malt the grain and give it to you for nothing, giving everyone that fuzzy lubby dubby feeling of helping you make the beer which you in turn you,provided to the masses for nothing ( well maybe you got them to mow the lawn of a weekend, and wash the bird poop off that red flag every now and then )
Fact of the matter is grain (any type of grain ) is in short supply world wide. Prices are on the up not because of conspiracys like yours and TD's, but because ALL food industries are competing to guarantee some supply this year. One would envisage that a large company like Cryer would not want to be buggerising around with 20kgs of malt when they have another chap on the phone wishing to order 300 tonne of the bloody stuff. It makes good business sense to pass the smaller retail sector onto a reseller who is set up and willing to handle such quantities. I've never met Ross and have not purchased anything from Craftbrewer but he has been exceptional as a source of knowledge to both myself and others on this forum. Some of you blokes really should get out more.

Redgums

:lol: You are missing one important part in that utopian plan of yours. YOU have to grow it, and malt it, not "someone" else - it doesn't just get dropped off at your door! And if you speak ill of those who rule your society, you get persecuted! Starting to see any similarities by the way???

I think it might be a good idea for some people here to actually read the posts in this thread... Nobody's arguing about drought premiums. And since when was 300t the minimum wholesale order??? :lol: Its long been established that half a pallet (500kg) constitutes a wholesale quantity.

 

[warrenlw63]

Whoops wrong door! I thought this was Dystopia. B)

Warren -

 

[the_fuzz]

Its long been established that half a pallet (500kg) constitutes a wholesale quantity.

Did you call Cryer and confirm?

Why would a wholesaler sell to a NON-ABN holder?

 

[T.D.]

As I said, home brew shops have long been ordering half pallets of grain wholesale.

Cryer used to happily sell to non ABN holders. Who said you HAVE to have an ABN to attract wholesale pricing anyway? If the wholesaler has that as a requirement then that's fine, that's their decision.

This has become a very petty argument.

 

[T.D.]

Whoops wrong door! I thought this was Dystopia. B)

Warren -

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[kabooby]

I understand what Warren and TD are saying and I respect that. If Cryers have been cajoled and prices do start to go up to fatten someones pocket than we have a reason to be upset. I dont think this has happened and possibly will not happen.

Do we know that Cryers have been cajoled into anything or is it just speculation. If its just speculation than this has been a very entertaining thread

Kabooby

 

[bconnery]

I can't pretend to know the real reason but I would hazard a guess that the reason, or at least one, that we can no longer organise direct from Cryer is related to that of the hops. There is a shortage on and in times of shortage the regular customers get taken care off first, not one off now and again random punters.

When there is lots to go around then any business is welcome...

Plus Cryer would see it as an advantage to allow the administration, and therefore time, to be taken care of by a third party, They still get the money for the product, but with less investment in time, which is after all, money. That is simply good business as far as they are concerned.

 

[domonsura]

I think it might be a good idea for some people here to actually read the posts in this thread... Nobody's arguing about drought premiums. And since when was 300t the minimum wholesale order??? :lol: Its long been established that half a pallet (500kg) constitutes a wholesale quantity.

Bullshit.
Maybe half a pallet is wholesale to you T.D., but to Cryer or Bintani or any other maltster, it's a sneeze in a big big bucket, and barely warrants the time to pick up the phone. They used to be happy to do it, and now their not. I would say that it's more as a result of their own accounting dept calling a halt to it than anything else. And they asked me for my ABN number when I was talking to them this morning by the way.....

You got one thing right though - Ross's prices are good. Bloody good. And that's got everything to do with the amount of grain he moves, none of this rubbish about retailers pressuring wholesalers. I have the latest price list from Cryer, and the prices per bag he has quoted involve virtually no margin as far as I can see when you factor in GST. And that's also probably because he moves enough to get a better deal than I can so his price list would look better than mine. And that's business.

But some simple facts for all those who can't see past the bullshit in this thread-

1. Cryer will deal with anyone wanting to re-sell REAL quantities of malt, that's why I have the price list from them as well.......because I'm a retailer....(which incidentally is what Cryer classes YOU as Darren, because you re-sell malt at a markup just like everyone else - however small.) This is because they are a WHOLESALER not a RETAILER. Wholesalers sell to re-sellers. Re-sellers sell to the public. That's the way it works. Any questions?
2. ]Cryer is reluctant to deal with ANYONE who is not a re-seller, and also ANYONE who is asking for malts in quantities/frequency that will cost them just as much in time to package and send as it will make them profit. (ie: half a pallet) Because IT'S NOT WORTH IT, AND THEY ARE IN BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY, and because to sell wholesale direct to the public destroys retails markets.
3. Hopco or Bintani don't sell hops to ANYONE in quantities less than 5kg - doesn't matter who you are. This is the way it's been for at least the last 2 years that I have been buying stuff from them. They both prefer to deal in 20kg bales, and will give preference to businesses placing orders for that amount. If you want to buy your hops in 20kg lots, go right ahead and you might have some sway too.....but I'm still pretty sure that Peter Meddings at Bintani and John Ross @ Hopco would both tell you to go jump if you asked them to refuse sale to other parties and only sell to you so you could corner the market. Same would definitely go for David @ Cryer Malt. They are all great guys & as far as I'm concerned have great ethics....which is more than I can say for people who make baseless wild accusations of anti-competitive behaviour with no evidence whatsoever.
4. There is sweet f'all money to be made in malted grain full stop. Most smaller HBS's only stock it because it's one of the things they are expected to do it to get customers in to sell other stuff to. They make far more money off cans of extract. Bags of grain take up massive amounts of space, require cool pest free storage (which costs money) and have limited shelf life (which also costs money) You can put 100 cans of extract on one shelf and the mice can sit and stare at them till they die of old age. Then give the cans a wipe with a rag and they look just like new.....
5. You could invest 6 figures into a business just like Ross, & get the deals that he does. Until then, quit your whinging and accept that he's done it for you and he deserves to make a little bit of money for his trouble.
6. Companies like Cryer make decisions sell or not sell to whoever based on their margins and decisions made by their board - not 'pressures' by HBS retailers. If you think anything else you are deluding yourself. Ross might sell quite a bit of grain, but I'm pretty sure that he would get told where to get off by a multi million dollar turnover business that could take or leave his business at will, if he asked for exclusivity ......
7. uhhhhh...I forgot ....what were we all getting so upset for? Aren't the prices still reasonable?

 

[Adamt]

^--- In other words: "Close the thread."

 

[warrenlw63]

[*]Hopco or Bintani don't sell hops to ANYONE in quantities less than 5kg - doesn't matter who you are. This is the way it's been for at least the last 2 years that I have been buying stuff from them. They both prefer to deal in 20kg bales, and will give preference to businesses placing orders for that amount. If you want to buy your hops in 20kg lots, go right ahead and you might have some sway too.....but I'm still pretty sure that Peter Meddings at Bintani and John Ross @ Hopco would both tell you to go jump if you asked them to refuse sale to other parties and only sell to you so you could corner the market. Same would definitely go for David @ Cryer Malt. They are all great guys & as far as I'm concerned have great ethics....which is more than I can say for people who

Au contraire Dom... A letter we all received on Oz Craftbrewer forum about 4 years ago. They used to be more than happy to consider us until a nameless retailer stomped his boots a few years ago and stopped all that. If memory serves the ensuing row over the remaining 2005 crop being bought as a whole by said retailer formed the genesis of another retailer.

This is from 2004 Ah the memories;
Dear Brewers

Here at Hopco we have had to do some repackaging of hops and as a result have some New Zealand Flowers available in 1 kg packs. The varieties are;
NZ Fuggle flowers a/a 5.1%
NZ Styrian Golding flowers a/a 4.5%
NZ Pacific Hallertau flowers a/a 6.0%
NZ Nelson Sauvin flowers a/a 13.5%
The price for these packs is $44 each (GST inclusive), postage will be $7.

There are only 4 packs of each variety so get in early.

We also still have some of the 1 kg packs of pellets at $25 each (GST inclusive). The varieties left are;
US Crystal a/a 4.0 %
US Ahtanum a/a 5.7 %
US Galena a/a 12.9 %
US Santiam a/a 6.3 %
US Sterling a/a 6.8 %
US Vangard a/a 6.2 %
US Golding a/a 4.0 %
UK Progress a/a 5.7 %

Kind regards

Sandy Ross
Hopco Pty Ltd
Phone: 03 6225 1596
Fax: 03 6225 2879
Mobile: 0403 005 248


Warren -

 

[Duff]

Great comments T.D :icon_cheers:

 

[domonsura]

Hold on Warren.....as you said 2004...I said 2 years not 4...that's a loooooong time ago..and I don't see anything in there that points to unethical behaviour of the likes that people have been accused of in this thread.......

And hopco was a considerably smaller business back then - they were probably much happier to sell hops by the kg then because they had more time available from what I can gather. They are run off their feet now and hardly have time to scratch their bums at times. I was chatting to John @ Hopco a little while ago about how much bigger their business is these days, how busy they are now & how things are 'not as they were in the good old days' He's a damn nice guy, as is Peter Meddings from bintani etc and by reputation David Cryer - which is one of the reasons I piped up. These guys have been tarred & feathered by association in this thread, and they don't deserve it. Nor in my opinion does Ross.

Overall. things change, prices go up, the world goes round..... We just all have to adjust and get used to it.

Now ALL OF YOU. Put down your bow's and arrows and go and make some beer for god's sake......

 

[warrenlw63]

Oh for sure Dom. Just wouldn't like to think that Hopco were trying to rewrite history. :lol:

Warren -