Off Topic: Bulk Buy issues

[Ross]

Ok, Ok, Ross is a nice guy and is looking out for you.

Who cares if we have to pay $100 for a bag of malt in the future?

Ross' prices look pretty good ATM. Grab it whilst you can as new prices are significantly higher (eg $60/bag of BB ale out of the warehouse without GST, around $85 without GST for Weyermann pils).

cheers

darren

I shan't add fuel to the personnel abuse being hurled at me, but I will correct the above false statement.

As off 1st April, our Weyermann prices will be unchanged ie $63 per bag GST inc & not the $93+ being stated
BB malts will see approx 15% rise, making Ale malt just $44 a bag GST inc & not the $66+ being stated.
Bairds will see increases of up to 30% on the specialty malts but Marris Otter will only see a rise to $59 (10%)
That's through us though....what Darren charges is down to him B)

Cheers Ross....

 

[Darren]

I shan't add fuel to the personnel abuse being hurled at me, but I will correct the above false statement.

As off 1st April, our Weyermann prices will be unchanged ie $63 per bag GST inc & not the $93+ being stated
BB malts will see approx 15% rise, making Ale malt just $44 a bag GST inc & not the $66+ being stated.
Bairds will see increases of up to 30% on the specialty malts but Marris Otter will only see a rise to $59 (10%)
That's through us though....what Darren charges is down to him B)

Cheers Ross....

Ross,

You are correct. i was working it out at 25 bags/tonne as opposed to 40

cheers

Darren

 

[T.D.]

BB malts will see approx 15% rise, making Ale malt just $44 a bag GST inc

Is this the retail price (non-bulk-buy) per sack available from craftbrewer? I always thought the whole point of a bulk buy was to get wholesale prices - just the same as retailers do when they buy in bulk for their stores. If a sack of grain is only going to cost $44 from craftbrewer then why is everybody bothering with a bulk buy? Sorry if I've missed something, I've only skimmed through the thread.

Personally, I think the days of bulk buys are dead (congratulations to the retailers/individuals out there who have set out to achieve this goal). These days a moderate "large-order discount" is really the most that you can hope for. I must say I am pretty sick of various retailers interfering in the market in an effort to force home brewers to buy from particular stockists only, at relatively elevated prices. Its pretty ordinary behaviour in my opinion. Particularly when the practices of some retailers are precisely what they themselves criticised others for doing not so long ago.

 

[DJR]

Is this the retail price (non-bulk-buy) per sack available from craftbrewer? I always thought the whole point of a bulk buy was to get wholesale prices - just the same as retailers do when they buy in bulk for their stores. If a sack of grain is only going to cost $44 from craftbrewer then why is everybody bothering with a bulk buy? Sorry if I've missed something, I've only skimmed through the thread.

Personally, I think the days of bulk buys are dead (congratulations to the retailers/individuals out there who have set out to achieve this goal). These days a moderate "large-order discount" is really the most that you can hope for. I must say I am pretty sick of various retailers interfering in the market in an effort to force home brewers to buy from particular stockists only, at relatively elevated prices. Its pretty ordinary behaviour in my opinion. Particularly when the practices of some retailers are precisely what they themselves criticised others for doing not so long ago.

Freight has to be added in...

Anyone want malt from Cascade maltings, 500kg minimum, under $1 a kg i hear...

 

[Stuster]

T.D., AFAIK that price is the price for the bulk buy ie 20 bags plus. The price for one bag is higher. The price from Dave's I gave includes a 20% discount for the bulk buy as well. It's a fair amount if you're buying a few bags, but as you say, it's more of a large order discount. Which is fine I think.

 

[T.D.]

Hey Stu, obviously I would never sneeze at a discount of any kind! But if you're ordering a wholesale quantity, its my feeling that you should get a wholesale price!

I certainly don't blame retailers for not charging wholesale prices - they are running a business after all. What I object to is some retailers FORCING brewers to go through them for a bulk buy, and tacking on a margin for the trouble! When not long ago, these same brewers could have dealt with the maltster direct. A moderately discounted retail margin, all for making a phonecall, is a bit rich I reckon.

Sorry for the rant by the way!

 

[warrenlw63]

Yeah, that is sort of a grey-area that hasn't been explained ??

Like T.D. just stipulated. I've been in on a couple of orders where the orchestrator of the bulk-buy was allowed to deal with Cryer's directly. Prices were also a little better. Not sure what has happened there? I do understand that malt prices have risen though.

Just a little puzzled as to why Cryer's have shut the gate? Same thing happened with buying kilo lots from Hopco some time ago too. That notwithstanding I guess I'm happy to go with the flow.

I guess not everything is forever.

Warren -

 

[razz]

Yeah, that is sort of a grey-area that hasn't been explained ??

Like T.D. just stipulated. I've been in on a couple of orders where the orchestrator of the bulk-buy was allowed to deal with Cryer's directly. Prices were also a little better. Not sure what has happened there? I do understand that malt prices have risen though.

Just a little puzzled as to why Cryer's have shut the gate? Same thing happened with buying kilo lots from Hopco some time ago too. That notwithstanding I guess I'm happy to go with the flow.

I guess not everything is forever.

Warren -

Diamonds are!

 

[chovain]

Hey Stu, obviously I would never sneeze at a discount of any kind! But if you're ordering a wholesale quantity, its my feeling that you should get a wholesale price!

I certainly don't blame retailers for not charging wholesale prices - they are running a business after all. What I object to is some retailers FORCING brewers to go through them for a bulk buy, and tacking on a margin for the trouble! When not long ago, these same brewers could have dealt with the maltster direct. A moderately discounted retail margin, all for making a phonecall, is a bit rich I reckon.

Sorry for the rant by the way!

Nobody's forcing anybody to do anything. These conspiracies about retailers forcing brewers to buy through them just don't hold water. If Cryer wanted to deal with us, they would, but they don't want to because it's not what they do. That said, if I ever found out that a retailer had done an actual deal with a distributor to not sell to other retailers, then I'd be happy to see them go out of business, and would be eager to do what I could to help that along.

It's not going to happen though: we have multiple maltsters and distributors in Australia. While the product ranges aren't identical, they are substitutable. If a retailer were to tie up a particular distributor in an attempt to drive the prices up, then we'd collectively spend more with the other brand. It's either not worth it for us to stick with a brand, or it's not worth it for the evil retailer/distributor.

Keep in mind that bulk buys are not really wholesale quantities. It might be as big an order as a typical wholesale order, but the wholesalers don't want to deal with a "pseudo-retailer" who is only going to put in one order a year if they're lucky, and who doesn't have a shop-front to receive the goods. Likewise, I can't imagine many LHBS's would find it too easy to have multiple malt suppliers. If they're getting lots of grain from Bintani, then they're going to find it pretty tough to convince Cryer to supply them the small quantities they'd need to extend their product range.

Edit: By "an actual deal", I'm talking about: "Will you refuse to deal with other retailers if I pay a little more for the malt?" type deals.

 

[Ross]

Is this the retail price (non-bulk-buy) per sack available from craftbrewer? I always thought the whole point of a bulk buy was to get wholesale prices - just the same as retailers do when they buy in bulk for their stores. If a sack of grain is only going to cost $44 from craftbrewer then why is everybody bothering with a bulk buy? Sorry if I've missed something, I've only skimmed through the thread.

Personally, I think the days of bulk buys are dead (congratulations to the retailers/individuals out there who have set out to achieve this goal). These days a moderate "large-order discount" is really the most that you can hope for. I must say I am pretty sick of various retailers interfering in the market in an effort to force home brewers to buy from particular stockists only, at relatively elevated prices. Its pretty ordinary behaviour in my opinion. Particularly when the practices of some retailers are precisely what they themselves criticised others for doing not so long ago.

hi TD,

Not sure if you are having a dig at me personally here or not...but in answer to your questions.

The prices quoted are ex warehouse for minimum 20 sacks. Further discounts are available on quantity eg BB pale malt drops by approx 30% if you want a 100 sacks worth. Our prices ex store up here are approx $15 a sack more, which takes into account freight, storage, finance. We also supply micros & HBS's.
For the record, we never approached Cryer Malts to handle their malt for them, they approached us & IMO it's giving everyone a pretty good deal, otherwise I wouldn't have taken it on.

Cheers Ross

 

[T.D.]

Nobody's forcing anybody to do anything. These conspiracies about retailers forcing brewers to buy through them just don't hold water. If Cryer wanted to deal with us, they would, but they don't want to because it's not what they do.

But they used to, quite happily. In fact they were building a very favourable reputation among homebrewers for being fair dinkum about bulk buys and actually doing a wholesale transaction. But mysteriously that has now stopped. Well, its not that mysterious - bulk buys hurt home brew shops - that's the bottom line. So its in the interest of these retail outlets to "negotiate" with suppliers not to allow non-commercial entities buy in bulk at wholesale prices. Its a classic "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" situation. Its not a conspiracy in the slightest.

Its not just grain, its hops too. You used to be able to buy 1kg lots of hops from hopco. Now that's stopped too. These wholesale companies were only too happy to deal with homebrewers direct once upon a time. So what's changed? Why the sudden closed doors? Coincidently at the same time retailers begin offering similar deals through themselves (albeit, with an extra margin for the trouble).

Sorry if I have gotten anybody's nose out of joint, I just find the whole thing a bit sneaky and insincere.

 

[T.D.]

hi TD,

Not sure if you are having a dig at me personally here or not...but in answer to your questions.

The prices quoted are ex warehouse for minimum 20 sacks. Further discounts are available on quantity eg BB pale malt drops by approx 30% if you want a 100 sacks worth. Our prices ex store up here are approx $15 a sack more, which takes into account freight, storage, finance. We also supply micros & HBS's.
For the record, we never approached Cryer Malts to handle their malt for them, they approached us & IMO it's giving everyone a pretty good deal, otherwise I wouldn't have taken it on.

Cheers Ross

Ross,

I am not referring to any one retailer in particular. This is something that's been occurring with increasing frequency among a number of retailers in the last year or two. I think most people around here know what I am talking about. I'm sure you do too, as one such example was supposedly the reason you started your business. Other examples also exist.

 

[warrenlw63]

Ross,

I am not referring to any one retailer in particular. This is something that's been occurring with increasing frequency among a number of retailers in the last year or two. I think most people around here know what I am talking about. I'm sure you do too, as one such example was supposedly the reason you started your business. Other examples also exist.

The point is valid. Everytime something comes along for a reasonable price en-masse it always seems to have its market cornered.

Two things... Should be a buyer's market and secondly I'm starting to think posting one's intentions on an open forum has its limitations.

Like homebrewing itself. Stop it and it will go underground.

Warren -

 

[Ross]

But they used to, quite happily. In fact they were building a very favourable reputation among homebrewers for being fair dinkum about bulk buys and actually doing a wholesale transaction. But mysteriously that has now stopped.

It has not stopped - Cryer simply asked us to handle the bulk buys for them as handling these small quantities is not their core business & they were finding it a problem to administer - Would you rather they stopped supplying bulk to homebrewers? With the small return we get for administrating this & then to get public abuse for it, it makes you wonder why you bother.... I can assure you, from a finacial perspective, I'd much rather be making full retail sales.

Anyway, I do see where you are coming from, but I can assure you there is no agenda here other than promoting Cryer Malts & giving everyone a good deal.

Cheers Ross

 

[T.D.]

It has not stopped - Cryer simply asked us to handle the bulk buys for them as handling these small quantities is not their core business & they were finding it a problem to administer - Would you rather they stopped supplying bulk to homebrewers? With the small return we get for administrating this & then to get public abuse for it, it makes you wonder why you bother.... I can assure you, from a finacial perspective, I'd much rather be making full retail sales.

Anyway, I do see where you are coming from, but I can assure you there is no agenda here other than promoting Cryer Malts & giving everyone a good deal.

Cheers Ross

But clearly it is worth it for you to get involved in these bulk buys, or you wouldn't be doing it??? Thing is, the bulk buys worked just fine before, without unnecessary middle man mark ups. Don't get me wrong, its great that you offer a bulk discount - its not that with which I have a beef - its the fact that the only option now is to go through a retailer, at a higher price, when not long ago, both home brewers AND Cryer were more than happy dealing direct. So what's changed?

You are asking yourself why you bother doing it - I think there are more and more home brewers out there wondering the same thing. My old HBS used to do a 20% off deal for a lot less than half a pallet. To me half a pallet is a commercial quantity, which deserves to be a wholesale transaction. In fact I know of home brew shops that order half a palet direct from malting companies. Do they need to do their transaction through another retailer? No, they deal direct with the supplier! What's different with home brewers?

That's all I am saying. Who it was that convinced Cryer to stop dealing direct with home brewers is a moot point - its the fact that there are now extra people in the supply chain that are effectively redundent, and are all taking a little cut for themselves. This is my point. Its not a stab at any particular individual, but rather its a stab at the "practice" in general.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Clearly TD you have a problem with the way Bulk buys are being run and that's your right, so I'm glad to see you haven't participated in this one.

Clearly you are also taking this thread way off topic and maybe you should air your beefs else where on the forum.

I'm just glad you refrained from airing your off topic views in the Bundaberg Bulk buy thread, everyone knows how these bulk buys work and if they don't like it they don't come on board. No offence but I really think your flogging a dead horse now.

It would be nice to see the Moderators doing their jobs and moving some of these posts elsewhere. Probably mine included.

Andrew

 

[kabooby]

Its been hard not to coment on this issue but its starting to get my goat. If Cryers dont want to deal with bulk buys to homebrewers and prefer to deal with wholesalers than it is completely there choice. I understand that it would be much easier for them to supply wholesalers, whom which they already have account and delivery details and probably even have comercial credit, than it would be to supply a bunch of homebrewers a couple of times a year.

There is no need to put dirt on Ross for handling this when Cryers asked him to do it!!!!

Whats next? Putting shit on Harvey Norman because we cant buy our TV directly from Sony

Can we get on with the bulk buy now

 

[T.D.]

Clearly TD you have a problem with the way Bulk buys are being run and that's your right, so I'm glad to see you haven't participated in this one.

Clearly you are also taking this thread way off topic and maybe you should air your beefs else where on the forum.

I'm just glad you refrained from airing your off topic views in the Bundaberg Bulk buy thread, everyone knows how these bulk buys work and if they don't like it they don't come on board. No offence but I really think your flogging a dead horse now.

It would be nice to see the Moderators doing their jobs and moving some of these posts elsewhere. Probably mine included.

Andrew

Andrew, you may have noticed I'm not the only one here who finds the whole thing a bit dubious. But if people are happy with the current situation then that's great. As you pointed out, I haven't participated.

 

[T.D.]

Its been hard not to coment on this issue but its starting to get my goat. If Cryers dont want to deal with bulk buys to homebrewers and prefer to deal with wholesalers than it is completely there choice. I understand that it would be much easier for them to supply wholesalers, whom which they already have account and delivery details and probably even have comercial credit, than it would be to supply a bunch of homebrewers a couple of times a year.

There is no need to put dirt on Ross for handling this when Cryers asked him to do it!!!!

Whats next? Putting shit on Harvey Norman because we cant buy our TV directly from Sony

Can we get on with the bulk buy now

I am a bit sick of this circular conversation too, so I'll say one more thing then that's it.

You've missed my point entirely. Not for a second do I EXPECT wholesale prices, don't get me wrong! All I am saying is that if ordering a wholesale quantity (as determined by the supplier that is) you deserve a wholesale price. I don't think that's an "outrageous" comment.

Let me ask you though, using your Harvey Norman principle, if you called Sony and asked them what their minimum wholesale order quantity was, and they told you 100 TVs... And you had 100 people that wanted to buy those TVs... Would you be content dealing through Harvey Norman to buy those TVs at a price that is somewhere between the wholesale and retail price? Most people would rather deal with Sony at a wholesale level. Of course, if Harvey Norman convinced Sony to disallow such an option you'd have no choice in the matter...

I find it very hard to believe that Cryer don't want to deal with home brewers because its "too much trouble". If that was the case they'd simply increase their minimum order quantity. Seems much more likely to me that retailers who feel that these bulk buys are harming their retail sales have convinced cryer to stop supplying home brewers. It is this practice that I find a bit rough. Whether you agree is up to you.

They are my thoughts though. Once again, I am not aiming these comments at any one retailer. My beef is with the practice of artificially adding barriers to trade in any market - home brew or otherwise. I am simply using the example of Cryer to illustrate my point (apologies to Ross if it appears this is an issue I have with him personally - like I said, he has stated that craftbrewer was set up to get around this issue in the case of hops). I think my point is clear. No more comment required.

 

[Gerard_M]

Well I must be bored as I have read most of this topic whilst the HLT gets up to temp. There needs to be a corner of this forum set aside for bickering & whinging. Ross don't worry about the abuse, there have been harsher comments made on this forum in the past and they were directed at much nicer people than you! Time to HTFU old boy! Has anybody bothered to ask DrewCarey if he wants to be in the bulk-buy?Stu should I give him a call ?
Cheers
Gerard