No Chill

[mje1980]

No chilling also has a viagra like affect, the missus will be happy!

 

[Mike L'Itorus]

Apart from the simplicity, a big advantage of no-chilling is that it "decouples" the brew day from the need to pitch the brew immediately.

So you can brew like a maniac and build up a stash of wort cubes, then ferment at your leisure.

In a nutshell. It also depends on what you brew, as well as when you brew. Effects on late hopping? Imho, yes. Less aroma and flavour. On Bitternes? Or, more correctly, percieved bitterness? This one is still up for debate; but I've discussed it at length with a chill only hophead (very experienced) brewer (also judge ), and we agree that any possible issue is very likely to be overrated in ome corners.

I've brewed both ways. Granted, most of my beers are esentially malt forward. Most, not all. I NC for the most part. Why? Ease. As mentioned, you can pitch at leisure. My ferment fridge can hold 2 x 23L fermenters. My rig output is also 2x 23L. So, by no-chilling, I can ferment 2 different beers, side by side (assuming that the yeast are in the same temp range), which means that I can have 2 different beers (sometimes very different) on tap at the same time. It also means that I can go months on end without brewing, but still have beer available.

If I was doing something that was hop flavour/aroma forward eg APA, I would probably chill. Probably, not necessarily. Dry hop, or hop tea at pitching is always an option....

FWIW....additions of 5-7%AA hops @ 20 or 15 min, in the region of 0.5g/L-0.75g/L make 4/5ths of SFA difference to NC beers vs chilled, imo. Been there, done that.

 

[kymba]

can you get skunking in cubes? my cubes get a bit of light on them whenever i open the garage door (not direct sunlight though)

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Its possible I guess to get a bit of lightstrike in cubes. It wont be a "big" issue though because the lightstrike chemical reaction requires riboflavin to be present and there is hardly any in wort, it mainly comes from yeast.

I wouldn't worry about a cube getting "a bit of light" - but personally wouldn't let them sit in full sun, and if you are letting them sit for extended periods, I'd keep them in a dim and preferably dark place. Skunking isn't the only aging reaction that light can help along.

 

[kymba]

thanks TB. might pop a towel over them anyway

 

[bum]

UVs will also make the cube itself brittle.

 

[Jay Cee]

[quote name='Mike L'Itorus' post='936648' date='Jul 20 2012, 12:20 PM']If I was doing something that was hop flavour/aroma forward eg APA, I would probably chill. Probably, not necessarily. Dry hop, or hop tea at pitching is always an option....[/quote]

If my brews require additions lower than 20 minutes, I'll decant a couple of litres from the cube, do a stovetop boil with hops, then pour into the fermenter when draining the rest of the cube. I assume its not perfect for utilisation but still better than nothing.

 

[Housecat]

can you get skunking in cubes? my cubes get a bit of light on them whenever i open the garage door (not direct sunlight though)

I keep my cubes in the middle of my double shed under a few old doulbe sheets. I have had them sit there for at least 9 months prior to brewing them and have not noticed any off flavours or faults in the finished product.

Also, I currently have 2 cubes I am purposely aging for 2 years. One is an APA Fat Yak style and the other is a Coopers PA. I am doing this to see if there is any big difference between aging 2 different styles of beer. I am thinking of putting a Porter or stout in with them to see how that one goes too.

HC

 

[Mike L'Itorus]

If my brews require additions lower than 20 minutes, I'll decant a couple of litres from the cube, do a stovetop boil with hops, then pour into the fermenter when draining the rest of the cube. I assume its not perfect for utilisation but still better than nothing.

I know a few brewers who do this, as well. Unless the hop additions in this late boil were ginormous, I don't see it drastically effecting things adversely. Although never done it myself, as have never really had the need.

 

[Jay Cee]

Utilisation was the wrong term, I agree that there's an immaterial amount if isomerisation at late addition stage, so any lost IBU points is irrelevant. To elaborate on my minor concerns with the stovetop tek, a consideration might be made concerning times. Newtonian physics isn't my strong suit, but I imagine that (for example) a flameout addition over 2 litres will differ from a flamout addition in conventional chilling, where whirlpooing & chilling presents a greater exposure to flavour & aroma compounds at a differing rate. I'm also impatient at this stage, so often pour my 2L in immediately. As such I generally add another 5 minutes to my reckoning. so a 'flameout' will be a 5 minute addition.

 

[sama]

leached plasticisers can help keep it fresh/preserved.

 

[manticle]

HDPE is renowned for leaching plasticisers.

And Claustr..................

never mind

 

[labels]

I wouldn't attempt a lager with no-chill, I think you would fail unless it is a very hoppy so it will hide problems such as DMS, leached plasticisers. Even no-chill in glass would produce a noticable amount of DMS, especially using lager malt which is predisposed to producing tons of the stuff.

 

[manticle]

And you know this because you've tried it or because someone told you that's how it is?

People have made no chill lagers, without shitloads of DMS. I can offer you my experience of non hoppy lagers both no chilled and fermented in the same HDPE vessel as well as some theory on why DMS is not a major issue if you're interested.

Leached plasticisers is not even supported in theory, let alone reality (unless you are no chilling in PET containers in which case you deserve it).

 

[labels]

And you know this because you've tried it or because someone told you that's how it is?

People have made no chill lagers, without shitloads of DMS. I can offer you my experience of non hoppy lagers both no chilled and fermented in the same HDPE vessel as well as some theory on why DMS is not a major issue if you're interested.

Leached plasticisers is not even supported in theory, let alone reality (unless you are no chilling in PET containers in which case you deserve it).

I would be interested in your experience and the theory. I haven't brewed with no-chill. All theory leads to DMS build up during slow cooling of wort, especially with malts that known for producing lot sof it such as lightly kilned pils malts.

I have experienced plasticiser leaching from HDPE containers in light (style) lagers. I now brew in stainless steel.

 

[stef]

I would be interested in your experience and the theory. I haven't brewed with no-chill. All theory leads to DMS build up during slow cooling of wort, especially with malts that known for producing lot sof it such as lightly kilned pils malts.

I have experienced plasticiser leaching from HDPE containers in light (style) lagers. I now brew in stainless steel.

I've brewed quite a few no-chill lagers. Never had problems with DMS or with leaching.

 

[Crusty]

I would be interested in your experience and the theory. I haven't brewed with no-chill. All theory leads to DMS build up during slow cooling of wort, especially with malts that known for producing lot sof it such as lightly kilned pils malts.

I have experienced plasticiser leaching from HDPE containers in light (style) lagers. I now brew in stainless steel.

This is exactly how the American brewers seem to believe is problematic with no chilling vs quickly cooling your wort.
Unfortunately at present they are way behind the eight ball with brewing techniques using no chill & the BIAB process.
As for DMS build up using the no chill method, absolute hog wash. I don't think you will find any DMS problems in fresh wort kits supplied by the site sponsors. These are no chilled & they certainly wouldn't be doing it via no chill if DMS was a factor. Leaching from HDPE is a bit of a myth too I'm afraid. I's never happened to me nor anyone I know of using the HDPE cubes.

 

[manticle]

Most theory is based around lager brewing on a commercial scale. No-chill is entirely impractical on such a scale and really is not a fair comparison.

Theoretically, SMM is transformed into DMS above around 80 degrees from memory. A longer boil will transform and volatise more than a shorter one.

All beers I make with a large portion of euro pilsner malts get a minimum 90 minute boil. After flameout, they then sit (loosely covered but my keggle has various places for steam to vent) for around 20 mins for convection currents to settle.

I then whirlpool and allow another 15-20 minutes for cone/trub formation.

I then run off into a cube. I have measured the temp previously at around 80 degrees - hotter than pasteurisation temp but cooler than DMS transformation temp (or right on the lower cusp).

Experientally - I haven't brewed loads of boh pils but I have made many beers with a large portion (some 100%) of euro pils. Dingemans and Weyermans are mainly what I use. These include saison, belgian pales and Belgian Golden Strongs. You may argue that the DMS will be hidden by the funky belgian yeast notes but I'm not convinced that DMS is so easy to hide.

I did last year brew a 100% pils malt bo pils which I whacked into VIC beerfest. It performed poorly, mostly due to it tasting a bit too clean and bland - not enough malt flavour nor fresh saaz flavour but the feedback picked up no DMS (actually allowable in that style anyway) and neither did I nor anyone else tasting it.

I won a couple of categories in 2011 state comp with NC beers (fermented in the cube as well). One was amber/dark lager - was actually an alt and with an ale yeast. Yes it had Munich malt in it but over 50% of the base was wey pils. I've tasted DMS in commercial beers, in HB beers and in fault tasting sessions and munich malt isn't going to hide it if it's in significantly high levels (as people seem to suggest no chill will give). The other was 100% pils Belgian golden strong but it had brett too so maybe unfair to use that as an example. Not sure if the fermentation of brett can scrub out DMS but I've made the same beer before with no Brett and not had DMS noted by myself or other brewers or judges.

As for plastic from HDPE: I myself have never noted a plastic flavour I could relate to a cube (and I've been No chilling on average once a fortnight for several years). I know some have from some cubes - Thirsty Boy had a recommendation for thoroughly rinsing new cubes with boiling water, tasting the cooled water and repeating till everything tasted fresh and clean) but is there any documentation of actual plasticisers leaching from HDPE? It's rated to about 120 degrees from memory.

Presumably you could NC into your SS vessel so you could eliminate one variable, try a Euro Bo pils using the method described above and see for yourself.

 

[labels]

This is exactly how the American brewers seem to believe is problematic with no chilling vs quickly cooling your wort.
Unfortunately at present they are way behind the eight ball with brewing techniques using no chill & the BIAB process.
As for DMS build up using the no chill method, absolute hog wash. I don't think you will find any DMS problems in fresh wort kits supplied by the site sponsors. These are no chilled & they certainly wouldn't be doing it via no chill if DMS was a factor. Leaching from HDPE is a bit of a myth too I'm afraid. I's never happened to me nor anyone I know of using the HDPE cubes.

Thst's very interesting. As I started brewing many years ago and all my information came from America in the early days of USENET I came to expect that their principals are the norm. My home brewery and brewing techniques are based around the American ideas because of this.
Although I'm unlikely to change my brewery or techniques now I am quite established it is refreshing to know that perhaps some of these old schools of thought are somewhat outdated so for that I thank you.
My plasticiser problem came from the early days when I was using an esky for mashing, it did get old before I tossed it. I use normal HDPE fermenters and they start breaking down after a while as well, I'm thinking of going Better Bottle here which I think is PET

 

[labels]

That is a very comprehensive answer and makes so much sense. I guess we get locked away into our own ways of doing things with the attitude that everthing else is inferior. Something I try my hardest not to do and yet slipped into it.

I appreciate your time and detailed explanation as well as sharing your experiencex,