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No Chill Using Brew Mate

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BobtheBrewer

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I BIAB and no chill and use Brew Mate. Beersmith confuses me, probably because I am old and not particularly computer savvy.
I'm pretty happy with my results but have a question. I use a hop bag for my hop additions and remove it from the wort before no chilling, and for this reason do not tick the "no chill" box in Brew Mate. For any recipe calling for 0 min additions I dry hop. Am I doing the right thing, (IBU's seem OK) and should I be dry hopping for up to 15 min additions?
 

Deebo

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As I understand even if you remove the hops the bitterness is still being extracted from alpha acids in solution (I believe I read someone say the alpha acids are still being isomerized). Thats why the checkbox is there.
 

Nick JD

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As I understand even if you remove the hops the bitterness is still being extracted from alpha acids in solution (I believe I read someone say the alpha acids are still being isomerized). Thats why the checkbox is there.
Can someone confirm this because it's not what I get in real life.
 

Markbeer

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As I understand even if you remove the hops the bitterness is still being extracted from alpha acids in solution (I believe I read someone say the alpha acids are still being isomerized). Thats why the checkbox is there.

I thought someone said they measured the IBU's with I think it was called a spectrophotometer and the IBUs were higher.

Mine certainly gets more bitter even with a hop sock when I no chill.
 

iralosavic

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I don't think there is any scientific evidence supporting this. Perhaps it makes a minute difference, perhaps none at all. Just brew based on not ticking the no chill box and if you find the end result to be notably more bitter than expected, adjust your recipe to suit. If not, then worry not. I personally ignore the no chill box.
 

mckenry

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search for Scotty's posts. User ///
He's put up some sensible info on how hops and no chill and FWKs work.
I cant remember the whole thing, so wont attempt to explain it as I'll get it wrong (at leasst slightly off) for sure.
 

Nick JD

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Sorry for dragging an old thread up, but I've just been PMing with another member who asked if the recipe he asked for was chilled or no chilled ... I plugged it into BrewMate and it came up with 24 IBUs chilled, and 43 IBUs no chilled.

WTF? There's no way that resembles reality.

Is the algorithm in BM figuring that the hops are left in the cube?
 

manticle

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Considering the ridiculous amount of theoreticals/hypotheticals involved in HB IBU calculation anyway, I reckon it's best not to get too bogged down with the numbers.

I have tried same wort, half chilled, half NC and there is not a doubt in my mind that late hops in NC add bitterness. Close to twice as much? presumably it depends on the recipe but I doubt it highly. My recipe had small additions every 5 mins after 25 mins and totals 57 ish calc IBU with no calcs for no chill. NC version definitely not (according to my unscientific measuring instrument) 90+.

Scotty and Thirsty Boy both have done some actual testing to measure the IBU but don't forget there are so many other compounds in hops (including some that add bitterness but may not be measured with IBU which only measures isomerised alpha acid ) as well as the perception of bitterness depending on recipe, fermentation and palate and the utilisation of hops depending on wort gravity, brewing system and hop freshness/storage etc.

All these variables make the numbers generated by brew software mean much less than your own experience with your own system.

My qualitative, not quantitative opinion only of course but that should be obvious enough.
 

Markbeer

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As I understand it, even if you remove the hops in a bag, or transfer to cube with hops left behind, the bitterness still increases if the wort is hot/boiling.

Same as if you reboil wort that has been cooled. The bitterness is increased once again. IE if you boiled a FWK over again the IBU's would go higher. I think because the oils are now in the wort. Someone I am sure will explain it better.

Whether BM is right or not I don't know.



Sorry for dragging an old thread up, but I've just been PMing with another member who asked if the recipe he asked for was chilled or no chilled ... I plugged it into BrewMate and it came up with 24 IBUs chilled, and 43 IBUs no chilled.

WTF? There's no way that resembles reality.

Is the algorithm in BM figuring that the hops are left in the cube?
 

manticle

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As I understand it, even if you remove the hops in a bag, or transfer to cube with hops left behind, the bitterness still increases if the wort is hot/boiling.

Same as if you reboil wort that has been cooled. The bitterness is increased once again. IE if you boiled a FWK over again the IBU's would go higher. I think because the oils are now in the wort. Someone I am sure will explain it better.

To a point possibly but once you start boiling hops much past 90 minutes (at least according to the book I'm reading at the moment on Barley wine) you start to counteract the bittering properties of iso alpha as the acids become hydrolised to a non bitter compound (humulinic). Add to that the possibility of extracting harsh bittering compounds that are not related to alpha acids and the numbers end up all over the place.

Whether the above is true (I have one reference only - Allen and Cantwell) there will be a limit to how much alpha acid can continue to be isomerised and keep adding bitterness in any wort, hop sock or no.
 

ekul

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Late hops add significant bitterness for me. ONe recipe in particular comes out at 6 ibu when i say it is chilled, but when i click the nochill option it is 18ibus.

I think the most important thing is standardisation. If you always click the nochill box and a recipe is too bitter then you can reduce the ibus a bit next time.
 

Rowy

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I take 15mins off for each addition for example a 30min is at 15min. For my flameout additions I wait until the temp in the kettle drops to 95 and I then add the addition to the bag. Let it sit for 20mins and remove bag. It's not perfect but it gets me closer than I was. I also tick the no chill box on Brewmate.
 

Nick JD

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The beer I've brewed a few times (and the recipe I mentioned before) is in the mid-20s IBUs, and that's what the "chill" figure suggests - as do my tastebuds. It's clearly under 30 IBUs and over 20.

I non-chill after removing the hops. Yet brewmate says it is in the mid-40s.

Why is the non-chill's "+ X IBUs" so damn big? Does anyone virtually halve their hops for no-chilling?
 

manticle

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I was under the impression that brewmate is developed by a user here (randyrob if I'm not completely senile at the age of 36) and I'm sure he'd not only be happy to answer how brewmate calculates but also to use the information to ciontinue to develop/improve the program.

I'm with you Nick in that I don't think close to 1/2 again is commensurate with my experience. I would be interested to know what the BM calc is based on and what factors are being considered.
 

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