No Boil For Malt Flavour

[Weizguy]

There's a graph in this month's BYO (Palmer, who else?) which shows the rate constant of isomerisation vs temperature. At 75 degrees, isomerisation rate is an order of magnitude less than at boiling. At the very least, you'd need to use in the order of 10-20 times more hops to get the same levels of isomerised AA (bitterness, sort of) if you no-boiled for 60min. You might need to hold it longer or do it hotter than 75 to use less hops.

or use iso-hop like the "big guys". OK,...some of the big guys, anyway.

Otherwise there is much less advantage to this method, due to other increasing costs/ ingredients..

I think that's a reasonable summary. Please provide more info. Fascinating.

 

[sijani]

I'm new to AG brewing so don't flame if I'm posting something that's obvious to more experienced brewers .

Why can't you boil the hops in water separately and add to the wort to make the final volume? I think you would have more control over flavours this way. Is there something in the wort that the hops need to extract the hop oil?

 

[pbrosnan]

Also leaves in all the proteins that would normally come out as hot break, not to mention the other nastied that don't get actually killed off during the mash. Have you ever left a mash tun for a day or so without emptying it ? Yech.

Holding the wort at 75-80 for an hour will provide an environment too hostile for most bugs. The comparison with spent grain left if the mash tun is really a fair one. I don't think sanitation would be a problem.

 

[Adamt]

I'm new to AG brewing so don't flame if I'm posting something that's obvious to more experienced brewers .

Why can't you boil the hops in water separately and add to the wort to make the final volume? I think you would have more control over flavours this way. Is there something in the wort that the hops need to extract the hop oil?

Boiling in plain water changes the compounds extracted from the hops. You need the malt in there for the lower pH to extract the right compounds.

If you're new to AG brewing, you're best to stick with the basics and standard methods and accept them at face value.

 

[sijani]

AdamT said ..." Boiling in plain water changes the compounds extracted from the hops. You need the malt in there for the lower pH to extract the right compounds. "

Ahhh. Thought there must have been a reason. I have an unfortunate habit of skipping the basics and jumping right into the deep-end. I think I'll spend the next couple of hours reading Palmer's bible.

 

[Muggus]

Digging up an old topic here:

I've just finished mashing, sparging and boiling a beer. She's all safe and chilled in my fermenter, hit my volume and gravity quite nicely.
The sparge went quite well, but there's always some liquid that takes its time to get through the grain bed in my lauter tun, and usually I disregard this liquid...usually very watery, pale and has very low specific gravity.

HOWEVER, today I pour it out (we're talking a brown beer here), and it's got fantastic colour. Have a taste; SWEET AS! Check the gravity...1.045! BAM.
Only manage to extract 400ml of this unboiled nectar, and decide "What the hell!" and chuck it into my 24L of boiled and chilled wort.

My question:
Is 0.4L out of 24L (~1.7%) of my wort being unboiled and essentially turbid, going to effect my batch at all?

 

[jbirbeck]

Digging up an old topic here:

I've just finished mashing, sparging and boiling a beer. She's all safe and chilled in my fermenter, hit my volume and gravity quite nicely.
The sparge went quite well, but there's always some liquid that takes its time to get through the grain bed in my lauter tun, and usually I disregard this liquid...usually very watery, pale and has very low specific gravity.

HOWEVER, today I pour it out (we're talking a brown beer here), and it's got fantastic colour. Have a taste; SWEET AS! Check the gravity...1.045! BAM.
Only manage to extract 400ml of this unboiled nectar, and decide "What the hell!" and chuck it into my 24L of boiled and chilled wort.

My question:
Is 0.4L out of 24L (~1.7%) of my wort being unboiled and essentially turbid, going to effect my batch at all?

I wouldn't have thought there would any any flavour impact it is after all th same as the boiled version but unboiled...infection risks would be my concern I normally give those extra bit a boil and save them as starters for the next batch.

 

[Muggus]

I wouldn't have thought there would any any flavour impact it is after all th same as the boiled version but unboiled...infection risks would be my concern I normally give those extra bit a boil and save them as starters for the next batch.

Yeah, that's what I usually do. But its dark, thick and wreaks of smoke (40% smoked malts), and tastes way too good to waste as a starter.
Thanks for the reassurance!

 

[RdeVjun]

My question:
Is 0.4L out of 24L (~1.7%) of my wort being unboiled and essentially turbid, going to effect my batch at all?

Sorry to break the bad news, but I would expect even that small amount to have quite bad effects. If that is turbid, unboiled liquor straight from the mash tun, which is likely to be loaded with bugs, IMO there's a pretty good chance it will infect the rest of the batch.

Mashout and hot sparge water may have knocked some of the bugs off but I'd still be very cautious. Ever left spent wet grain sit for a day or two? Smells like a naff sweaty horse blanket, that's what may happen to your wort. If you have the chance to re- boil the whole batch, do it pronto. Unless I've misunderstood something that is... :unsure:

 

[Bribie G]

It's often touted that in the old days (Medieval) they would make the beer from unboiled wort. However I can't see that, because the advantage of ale drinking was that it was safer than getting the water from the duckpond as the wort was indeed boiled. However just consider that even if they did drink unboiled beer, in those days they never changed their clothes till they rotted off their body, were infested with fleas and lice, didn't have toilet paper and never took a bath or cleaned their teeth - Rde's naff horse blanket would have been prime bedding for them and any sort of unboiled ale would have seemed heavenly to them. Just the thing to wash down a good plate of sheep's head or better still, some slink (aborted sheep and calves - a good source of cheap meat for the poor). They were more than welcome to it.

:icon_offtopic: Actually Rabelais, in his famous book "Gargantua and Pantagruel" did a thorough treatment on bum wiping, concluding that holding a goose between the legs and using it as an asswipe was perfect. He dismissed the paper of the day as: (some licence no doubt used in the translation from Old French: )

He who uses paper on his filthy bum
Will always find his ballocks lined with scum.

Well that's this thread down the toilet B)

Edit: linky. Beware amusingly disgusting content.

 

[neonmeate]

that's a crazy book just read it over last christmas. hilarious.

i think medieval beer drinkers would have preferred Kit+5Kilo rocket fuel made with beano, if they could have chosen what they drank

:icon_offtopic: Actually Rabelais, in his famous book "Gargantua and Pantagruel" did a thorough treatment on bum wiping, concluding that holding a goose between the legs and using it as an asswipe was perfect. He dismissed the paper of the day as: (some licence no doubt used in the translation from Old French: )

He who uses paper on his filthy bum
Will always find his ballocks lined with scum.

 

[RdeVjun]

Yeah BribieG, the whole slink thing is pretty ick even for those familiar with the usual farmyard gore... :icon_vomit: !!... (I nearly choked on my traditional Saturday breakfast, the bacon butty! )
Think I'd rather take my chances with the unboiled wort and, seeing as we have no fowl, perhaps modernising Rabelais by dragging the arse along the hall carpet after number twos! :lol: