New? temp controller pre-wired

[Ducatiboy stu]

Do you know what an earth current is S.E.

 

[S.E]

Because they are double insulated.

[SIZE=12pt]Yeah double insulated don’t need to be earthed. Need to go out now but would love to know the reason for not earthing pipes here when I get back if any one does know.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I saw an electrician inspecting a house here for the purchaser (my sister in law was selling it) I had expected him to check the earth bonding so this explains why he didn’t. He didn’t actually check anything just went into the attic and spoke on his phone for half an hour.So he just ripped the purchaser off. [/SIZE]

 

[S.E]

Do you know what an earth current is S.E.

[SIZE=12pt]Do please explain?[/SIZE]

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Yeah double insulated don’t need to be earthed. Need to go out now but would love to know the reason for not earthing pipes here when I get back if any one does know.

]

Hopefully you will do some research on our MEN system, earth current and how protection works.

I for one am not going to spoon feed you. Do sum research before you start harping on.

 

[spudfarmerboy]

n

. Do sum research before you start harping on.

You should take your own advice.

 

[TheWiggman]

I'm in a position at work where I've had to sort out legal things (in a nutshell - my company needed to know where their accountability lay for some things, and I had to determine what was law and what wasn't).

It's important to note that Australian Standards, or any other Standard for that matter, aren't by themselves a legal document. It is not correct to say "standard X says to do this and if you aren't you are breaking the law". The legal side of things by and large rest in Government Acts and Regulations. If a Government Regulation states that you "shall" do something, then in the context of that Regulation you are breaking the law if you don't comply.

Relevant to the discussion here, one such regulation refers to AS3000 and says if MUST be complied with. In that case if you don't follow this Standard you are breaking the law (if that Standard applies to you).

I have access to all Australian Standards and some ISO's at work so outside of work hours I'll look them up and see if I can find something to do with stickers and sales compliance certifications. Google isn't always the answer but all Regulations and Acts are freely available to the public and should be downloadable. There was a link quoted earlier, I'll have a look at it and answer the ongoing queries - hopefully - once and for all.
Look in the regs and acts first, and see if/where is might refer to a standard.

 

[dent]

Kind of off topic, but WRT water pipe, AS3000 2007 says:

5.6.2.2 Conductive water piping
Conductive water piping that is both—
( a ) installed and accessible within the building containing the electrical
installation; and
( b ) continuously conductive from inside the building to a point of contact
with the ground,
shall be bonded to the earthing system of the electrical installation.
Any equipotential bonding of conductive water piping shall be effected by
means of an equipotential bonding conductor connected to the main
earthing conductor or earth terminal or bar.

In addition to this, if you have an electric water heater, this applies

5.4.1.1 Exposed conductive parts
The exposed conductive parts of electrical equipment shall be earthed
where the electrical equipment is—
( a ) installed or could operate in an earthed situation; or
( b ) not installed in an earthed situation but any exposed conductive
part of the electrical equipment is electrically continuous with an
extraneous conductive part that is located in an earthed situation.

I dunno where HBHB has been getting his gear, but a random selection of the cheap appliances in my kitchen have all got a C tick.

 

[dent]

Earthing of metalic pipework can cause dangerous situations. It is old and out dated. Plumbers have been killed by bonding water & gas pipes.

http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Portals/0/Gas%20Professionals/Files/EARTHING%20OF%20ELECTRICAL%20INSTALLATIONS%20USING%20THE%20WATER%20RETICULATION%20SYSTEM.pdf

Just to be clear, the water pipe should be earthed, but the water pipe shouldn't BE the earth.

 

[S.E]

Hopefully you will do some research on our MEN system, earth current and how protection works.

I for one am not going to spoon feed you. Do sum research before you start harping on.

[SIZE=12pt]Don’t need to research MEN thanks, but you clearly need to research how earth protection works if you believe as you say “[/SIZE]Earthing of metalic pipework can cause dangerous situations”.

[SIZE=12pt]I wasn’t harping on about anything just explaining the different safety measures in place in the UK and HK as you had asked me to, all as you have spoon fed me is a load of nonsense in return. [/SIZE]

 

[S.E]

Just to be clear, the water pipe should be earthed, but the water pipe shouldn't BE the earth.

[SIZE=12pt]Thanks dent for that clarification that’s exactly what I expected and the point I was making.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I would also like to clarify that I was not at any point suggesting or encouraging the use of uncertified electrical equipment so I do not believe my post (that was hidden) contravened [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]site rule 4. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I do however agree that it muddied site rule 5 a tad and understand that barls was not happy about my comments on his attitude towards other members and took exception to it. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I think that barls had raised a valid question regarding the temp controller in the OP, it has derailed the thread somewhat but in a positive and constructive direction and highlighted a few important issues regarding electrical appliances (and cars) offered for sale in Australia.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Though Ducatiboy stu doesn’t understand the importance of earthing water pipes some of the info he posted raises further safety concerns.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Am I correct in understanding that it was common practise prior to 2005 and perhaps as late as 2008 for electricians and/or plumbers to use the water main as an earth (and neutral?) rather than an earth electrode? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=8.5pt]SAFETY ALERT [/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt]5 September 2008 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt]EARTHING OF ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS USING THE WATER RETICULATION SYSTEM [/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt]Standards Australia has re-iterated earlier warnings to tradespersons, in particular plumbers, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt]and water utility workers to a safety hazard involving the previous practice of using continuous, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt]metallic water reticulation systems as an earthing medium rather than using the currently [/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt]required method of earthing using an earth electrode.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=8.5pt]Following the death of a water utility worker in 2005, Energy Safe Victoria (ESV) issued a Safety Alert in [/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt]September 2005 warning of electrical hazards when working on metallic water main and associated [/SIZE]
[SIZE=8.5pt]fittings. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Do you know if all houses here wired prior to 2005/2008 were inspected and earthed correctly after the safety alert was issued?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Or was the practice of using the water reticulation system just discontinued and previously wired houses left uncorrected?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Cheers Sean [/SIZE]

 

[TheWiggman]

RIGHT...
It's probably been posted above but all the banter is based around the regulatory compliance mark. Refer here -

http://www.erac.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=552
AS4417.1 refers to the way to use and place the mark, not the conditions under which the compliance is required.

We're talking about consumer electrical safety here, which is governed under the ELECTRICITY (CONSUMER SAFETY) ACT 2004 in NSW: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/esa2004309/
If you've never read an Act before, don't start here. Essentially the terminology under the Act is reflected in the ERAC web site and ESSS.

The ERAC web site is the duck's nuts. The stuff here is law, and must be followed.

Most stuff that these mobs sell is classified as a level 1 peice of equipment. Refer here for an explination and note that it refers to the requirement to follow Standards, which are linked in this link:
http://www.erac.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=113&Itemid=563

If you have access to Standards take note of this for level 1 equipment. Where stated as 'shall' in the Standards, it essentially must be considered law and must be followed -

• An Australian Standards (AS) or joint Australian Standards and New Zealand Standards (AS/NZS) standard that applies specifically to the equipment type together with AS/NZS 3820 (Essential safety requirements for electrical equipment) or,
• If there is not a specific AS or AS/NZS standard that applies to the equipment type but there is an International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) standard that applies, then the IEC standard together with AS/NZS3820.
• If there is no IEC standard then AS/NZ3820 applies.

All very confusing. What it boils down to is that, to the extent we are talking -

• If it plugs into a 240V wall socket, it requires registration/certification in the national database in Australia and New Zealand (ERAC is the regulatory body which manages this database)
• The equipment must be marked (either a label or serial code visible) to show it is compliant
• It is illegal to sell it if it is not registered.

I'm sure that many retailers unknowingly sell these goods and that doesn't make it acceptable. However, there are so many rules and regulations out there often you don't know about them until you've breached them. Note too that equipment and requirements is not limited to the 3 points I put above.

At least now you (and I) know. As for equipment that existed before the above Act came into place, I'm not going there.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Though Ducatiboy stu doesn’t understand the importance of earthing water pipes some of the info he posted raises further safety concerns.

Well....I bet I have done more earthing systems including equipotential bonding,functional,protective and lightening than you...along with earth (dirt) resistance testing. You just didnt really understand the question you where asking....but anyway. I shall remain silent from now on....and you just like to pick fights so you can **** off.

 

[S.E]

Well....I bet I have done more earthing systems including equipotential bonding,functional,protective and lightening than you...along with earth (dirt) resistance testing. You just didnt really understand the question you where asking....but anyway. I shall remain silent from now on....and you just like to pick fights so you can **** off.

How do you figure I don’t understand my own question? It was perfectly clear to me and answered sensibly and clearly by dent. Are you sure you understood your question?

Lets have a recap of the conversation shall we?


barls: As for items in my house being tagged yes they have all been checked as I've actually done the test and tag course as well as being a qualified technician. Just cause it's not in the pic I posted doesn't mean it hasn't been done. Can you say the same of everything in yours.


S.E : No my stuff isn’t tagged and tested, I brought most of my electrical goods with me from the UK and Hong Kong. I’m happy that they are safe and would meet Australian standards though. From what I have seen UK and HK household wiring is a lot safer and stricter regulations than here in Australia also.

Ducatiboy stu: How so.....I am interested to know why...

S.E There are more safety regulations in place than I’ve seen here though it has occurred to me that some or all of them may be in place now for new builds and I just haven’t seen or noticed them.

For instance in a kitchen you cannot have an electric socket within 1 meter of the sink so an appliance can’t be knocked or dropped into a sink full of water while it is plugged in, or a kettle cannot be filled under the tap without unplugging it first. If the sink is stainless steel it must be earthed. Also the hot and cold pipes are cross bonded.

In a bathroom you cannot have a 240v electric socket only a 110v shaver outlet (unless it’s concealed in a cupboard for a boiler or something). The light switch and electric shower switch in a bathroom must be a pull cord unless they are located outside the bathroom so they can’t be operated with wet hands. Metal fixtures like a bath, radiator or aluminium window must be earthed and the pipe work cross bonded.

The water main (and gas pipe) is earthed where it enters the house and all other pipe work in the house is cross bonded and connected to the main so it is all earthed.

Modern electric sockets in the UK and HK are the same and have a little spring loaded cover over the live and neutral that is lowered by the longer earth pin as the plug is pushed in so inquisitive children cannot electrocute themselves by pushing in something metal like a knife, screwdriver or paper clip etc
.
Is any of this done here now?

Ducatiboy stu : Earthing of metalic pipework can cause dangerous situations. It is old and out dated. Plumbers have been killed by bonding water & gas pipes.

S.E: That warning you linked refers to [SIZE=10.5pt]EARTHING OF ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS USING THE WATER RETICULATION SYSTEM. That would be plain crazy I’m surprise electricians here needed to be warned about it, that just common sense. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Pipe work is earthed separately so it can’t become live if a faulty appliance or damaged cable comes in contact with it. It is not used as an earth.[/SIZE]

Ducatiboy stu: Go and read AS3000:2000

[SIZE=10.5pt]S.E: Why would earthing metal pipes be dangerous? Any more than say earthing a metal fridge?It is considered very important to do so in several other countries. [/SIZE]

Ducatiboy stu: Well....if you dont like how things are done here...your welcome to move to a safer country.

[SIZE=10.5pt]S.E So does that mean you don’t know and can’t answer the question? I’m really intrigued to know any good reason pipes shouldn’t be earthed if anyone else knows?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Ducatiboy stu: [/SIZE]Given your electrical knowledge, you should already know..

[SIZE=10.5pt]S.E Well I don’t so would love to hear, I can’t think of any reason, so what is the reason do you know?[/SIZE]

Ducatiboy stu: Well....do some research like others do. You might learn something.
Start Here --> www.google.com

Ducatiboy stu: So what happens when the plumber usee plastic pipes as is becoming more comon

[SIZE=10.5pt]S.E: Plastic pipes don’t need to be earthed if used on their own but if a section of plastic was used to repair a copper pipe the copper would need to be cross bonded.[/SIZE]

Practicalfool: To throw a rat into this cat fight, are your brew belts, pads, immersion heaters, reptile lamps, bulb in pot n all certified!

S.E: Is this a cat fight? I just want to learn something I didn’t know. Why is it considered dangerous here to earth household pipe work?


Ducatiboy stu: Why do you consider it essential

S.E: I don’t consider it essential, but it is a very wise precaution don’t you think? The plumbers who were killed that you mentioned in your earlier post may have been saved if the pipes had been earthed for instance.

Ducatiboy stu: Do you know what an earth current is S.E.

S.E: Do please explain?

Ducatiboy stu: Hopefully you will do some research on our MEN system, earth current and how protection works.
I for one am not going to spoon feed you. Do sum research before you start harping on.


S.E : Don’t need to research MEN thanks, but you clearly need to research how earth protection works if you believe as you say “Earthing of metalic pipework can cause dangerous situations”.

I wasn’t harping on about anything just explaining the different safety measures in place in the UK and HK as you had asked me to, all as you have spoon fed me is a load of nonsense in return.


dent : Just to be clear, the water pipe should be earthed, but the water pipe shouldn't BE the earth.


S.E: Thanks dent for that clarification that’s exactly what I expected and the point I was making.
Though Ducatiboy stu doesn’t understand the importance of earthing water pipes some of the info he posted raises further safety concerns.


Ducatiboy stu: Well....I bet I have done more earthing systems including equipotential bonding,functional,protective and lightening than you...along with earth (dirt) resistance testing. You just didnt really understand the question you where asking....but anyway. I shall remain silent from now on....and you just like to pick fights so you can **** off.


So ,See Stu I wasn’t trying to pick a fight, just replied to your question and you seem to have now got upset because your statement:

“Earthing of metalic pipework can cause dangerous situations. It is old and out dated”.

Turned out to be completely wrong and pipes are earthed here now after all. So all’s well that ends well.

However the question remains are houses that were wired prior to 2008 safe now or are the water pipes still being used to earth the electrical system?

Cheers Sean

 

[indica86]

This thread is gay.

 

[manticle]

To all contributors in this thread: Please discuss with civility.
Would rather not need moderators to step in and start editing or deleting posts.

 

[woodwormm]

This thread is gay.

It has gone a little pear-shaped....

hmmm, an "illegal" pre-wired "dodgy" controller, or an STC1000 illegally wired by a dodgy (me) ... neither are certified but I know which one I trust.

 

[Donske]

It has gone a little pear-shaped....

hmmm, an "illegal" pre-wired "dodgy" controller, or an STC1000 illegally wired by a dodgy (me) ... neither are certified but I know which one I trust.

I was actually contemplating a couple of these as they look a bit nicer than my STC set ups, after all the talk (read bickering) about certification the part in bold is what I keep coming back to, these may look nicer but I know for a fact that my STCs are safe.