New research on dry yeast

[Rocker1986]

If the distilling is done correctly then any chloramine should be left behind along with ions like Cl, SO4, Na etc. The whole purpose of distilling is to purify the water as much as possible. If done with too much gusto, then maybe (I stress maybe) some might go with the water vapour, but you'd be taking most other ions with the water too if chloramine went with it. I really think it is unlikely if your still is set up and used correctly. You seem a switched on brewer, so I'd suggest you are worried over nothing.

metabisulfite (S2O5-2) + monochloramine (2NH2Cl) + 3H20 --> 2NH4+ + 2Cl- + 2SO4-2 + 2H+ By distilling you should be leaving most of the resultant ions behind.

If you are really worried about it, may I suggest a slight change to your practice and add the potassium metabisulphite prior to distilling the water. Otherwise you are just adding potassium (no issue) and ultimately sulphates to your water, which may throw out your Cl:SO4 ratios when you add your later salt additions. Probably not a real issue for you, but if you are distilling the water to get it as pure as you can, then I'd leave it that way if I were you.

Thanks mate. It's just one of those 4L things off eBay. I'd imagine it works properly as I could definitely taste a difference in my pilsner recipe brewed with the distilled water with small mineral additions vs brewed with untreated tap water. There's always a layer of brown sludge looking **** in the bottom after it finishes a batch of water as well which I assume is the minerals left behind.

Either way I can't detect any flavour issues from adding the K met in the urn in terms of there being too much sulphate in the water. The beers taste as they should. I may be adding it pointlessly, and I've never detected any off flavours from not using it either but I figure it's better to remove it before it can present a problem.

 

[goatchop41]

Can I just correct one thing here. Chlorine, where ever it comes from, doesn't need yeast to react with phenols to create chlorophenols. This process can happen as early as the mash, in the kettle or in the wort (including topping up the K&K with water which contains chlorine/chloramines). The most common cause of tasting it is not rinsing chlorine based cleaners/sanitisers from equipment, but high levels of chlorine/chloramine in the water would be detectable to a lot of people (not all).

@goatchop41 is correct, different people are more, or less able to detect the flavours produced by this reaction. I never used to treat my mains water, nor tasted any chlorophenol flavours, until an Uncle from England once had a beer and could taste what he described as chlorine. I've used Ascorbic Acid ever since. The taste can also range in descriptors depending, from Adhesive tape, Band-Aid, disinfectant, medicinal, un-cured lacquer and a few more.

Just clarifying that all of my comments are regarding chloramines specifically.
One of the first bbers that I made with tap water was a saison. It was a decent saison, only momentarily on the back end, and only after the horrendous flavour that one could only describe as the smell of a strong band aid had made you want to spit it out. I started using campden from the next batch onwards

 

[Muzzanthrope]

Just clarifying that all of my comments are regarding chloramines specifically.
One of the first bbers that I made with tap water was a saison. It was a decent saison, only momentarily on the back end, and only after the horrendous flavour that one could only describe as the smell of a strong band aid had made you want to spit it out. I started using campden from the next batch onwards

I think it's also worth noting (before this starts another argument) the difference between chloraminated and chlorinated water supplies. Chloramines (from chloraminated systems) are much harder to remove than free Chlorine and a large number of water authorities have moved to chloramination disinfection systems in the past 10-20 years (including Bendigo).

 

[goatchop41]

I think it's also worth noting (before this starts another argument) the difference between chloraminated and chlorinated water supplies. Chloramines (from chloraminated systems) are much harder to remove than free Chlorine and a large number of water authorities have moved to chloramination disinfection systems in the past 10-20 years (including Bendigo).

Precisely, hence why it is imperative to either use metabisulphite or ascorbic acid, or a specific filter that can actually remove chloramines (as a lot of filters don't actually remove chloramines sufficiently)

 

[Brewno Marz]

Perhaps not to your personal threshold of detection, or perhaps you are lucky enough to have used yeasts that haven't reacted strongly with the chloromine. But I am simply being blunt about it - the chloramine is much, much more liekly to affect the final product than a tiny bit of ascorbic acid or metabisulphite.
I have information from the local brewery that our local water tops out at 3ppm of chloramine. They use filtering to remove it from their water

Again, the original question was around effect of chlorine or chloramine on yeast in rehydration. As I said, I'm happy with the end product, it may not be perfect, but its good and I was using ascorbic acid, but found no perceptible difference. Also, 3 ppm is very, very high and probably getting towards the tolerable end of dosing for tap water?

 

[Quokka42]

I can't imagine the chlorine concentration in major cities' water supplies would have a significant effect on yeast, but K met is actually a nutrient in small quantities so go hard! I used to live in a town where our water was so hard it would polish burnt saucepans, and the chlorine smell at times was almost unbearable. I wouldn't even drink the stuff, let alone try to brew with it! All water for drinking or brewing came from bottles or RO.

 

[MHB]

Chlorine is bad for yeast and beer.
I doubt anyone is doing much research on how bad as anyone involved at a professional or scientific level will be dam sure there is no Chlorine in the water before they start.
So same same with respect to how you choose to reactivate dry yeast, there shouldn't be any there to cause trouble, likewise for dangerous amounts of heavy metals, pesticides, Carbonate, Nitrate, Iron... before you make beer from it we need to be sure the water is good for brewing and that absolutely means its De-Chlorinated at a minimum.
Mark

 

[mr_wibble]

Here is a pretty useful introduction to yeast management - I strongly recommend it to you

That's a great document, but the font kerning hurts me.

 

[kyby]

I always use rain water as there is no town water where I live and the bore water is undrinkable and I've never had a problem. I have added a few things over the years but nowadays I normally don't bother. I only brew extract, no all grain.

 

[Quokka42]

Chlorine is bad for yeast and beer.
I doubt anyone is doing much research on how bad as anyone involved at a professional or scientific level will be dam sure there is no Chlorine in the water before they start.
So same same with respect to how you choose to reactivate dry yeast, there shouldn't be any there to cause trouble, likewise for dangerous amounts of heavy metals, pesticides, Carbonate, Nitrate, Iron... before you make beer from it we need to be sure the water is good for brewing and that absolutely means its De-Chlorinated at a minimum.
Mark

Again an emotive argument with no supporting evidence, facts, or literature. In many scientific experiments trace elements in town water can be ignored for large scale experiments, as any wayward effects would have been identified in trials.

Maybe you have a nose more sensitive than a dog - you are just going to have to live with that as the other 7.6 billion of us don't.

 

[MHB]

Again an emotive argument with no supporting evidence, facts, or literature. In many scientific experiments trace elements in town water can be ignored for large scale experiments, as any wayward effects would have been identified in trials.

Maybe you have a nose more sensitive than a dog - you are just going to have to live with that as the other 7.6 billion of us don't.

I'll do you the courtesy of assuming your pissed not just a complete ****!
Chlorine/Chloramine are added to otherwise Potable Water (safe to drink) to kill bugs (micro organisms of which yeast is an example). If water had too much of some contaminants it wouldn't be potable and wouldn't be safe to drink nor to brew with.
The major exception being Cl, this is present in amounts than can harm yeast and in some cases to affect the flavour of the beer. In another thread I posted a snippet from "A Handbook of Basic Brewing Calculations" S Holle here it is again.

I doubt there is anyone here (on AHB) who posts more documentation of their contentions than I do, certainly haven't seen much from you, just emotive argument with no supporting evidence and personal digs.
From The Complete beer fault guide, also posted often enough.

 

[Rocker1986]

Personally, I've never detected any off flavors commonly associated with chlorine/chlorophenols in my beers. Up until about a year or so ago I wasn't doing anything to the water in regards to chlorine/chloramine removal. Then I started reading about this potential issue and decided it was better to prevent it before it might occur rather than risk it occurring and end up tipping an entire keg down the sink, or having someone else drink the beer and pick up the fault. It doesn't take up much of my brew day to stir the brewing water a bit and throw in a pinch of K-met to achieve that. I hardly ever use dry yeast anymore so that aspect doesn't really affect my brewing.

 

[Leyther]

Interesting the description of Chlorophenol, this is something I have detected in a couple of my beers that I ended up tipping, I've never known the source though, I live SE Melbourne and our water is quite neutral, I also only use sodium perc and star san so no bleach type cleaners.

I've never used campden tablets as I never thought necessary however if it prevents a tipped batch then I would definitely consider using them, is there any downside to using these? especially if they may not actually be required?

 

[Rocker1986]

Interesting the description of Chlorophenol, this is something I have detected in a couple of my beers that I ended up tipping, I've never known the source though as I live SE Melbourne and our water is quite neutral, I also only use sodium perc and star san so no bleach type cleaners.

I've never used campden tablets as I never thought necessary however if it prevents a tipped batch then I would definitely consider using them, is there any downside to using these? especially if they may not actually be required?

If you want the chlorine/chloramine removed then it is necessary to use them, or the powdered form which I prefer. Used at the correct dosage I don't see a downside, the SO2 will just boil off when the wort is boiled, and you won't be risking those flavours.

Neutral or soft water like Melbourne has doesn't mean it doesn't contain these things, or less of them. It's still treated with them for disinfection and as such they can still affect your beer if not removed from the water, which it sounds like has happened on those couple of occasions.

 

[Muzzanthrope]

Interesting the description of Chlorophenol, this is something I have detected in a couple of my beers that I ended up tipping, I've never known the source though, I live SE Melbourne and our water is quite neutral, I also only use sodium perc and star san so no bleach type cleaners.

I've never used campden tablets as I never thought necessary however if it prevents a tipped batch then I would definitely consider using them, is there any downside to using these? especially if they may not actually be required?

If you get your water from SE Water then (I'm fairly sure) they use Chlorination for disinfection so you can simply boil or leave your water to sit overnight to remove the free chlorine. Chloramines, produced by Chloramination are much harder to remove so campden tablets are a sound option when this is how your mains water is treated.

In regards to yeast kill from Chlorine and Chloramines: If you are using a yeast starter with untreated mains water then there is no way you would kill off enough yeast to have a significant negative impact on the viability of your pitch. The amount of organic material added (from malt and yeast) would use up all available free and total chlorine well before a 100% yeast kill could occur, and if you add your L/DME and boil the liquid the yeast may not even see any chlorine. Untreated water will however result in some by-products being produced in your starter, the effect on your beer will depend on a number of factors; the amount and type of chlorine in your mains water, the style of beer being made, the size of your starter in relation to your total batch and your personal sensitivity. Personally I would wager that from a starter it would be, at most a very slight off flavour but I would just by a 600ml bottle of water from the supermarket if I needed water quickly for a starter or use the treated water I planned to use for my mas/boil.
(FYI I am a practicing Water Quality Engineer, so if anyone wants to call out my dodgy opinions I am more than happy to reference scientific papers if required)

 

[Schikitar]

I've got campden tablets, would half a tablet to ~36 litres of fairly neutral tap water be sufficient? I'd like to try it on the next brew because I keep detecting an off-flavour that I'm having a hard time identifying the source of (I wish I could describe it - it's sort of medicinal/papery, not overpowering but present)..

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I am on SE water, one camden tablet and stands overnight for around 34 litres

 

[Rocker1986]

I think the discussion about chlorine/chloramine effect on yeast was more about the re-hydration step rather than pitching into the whole batch or making yeast starters. My personal experience has been that it has no effect on it, at least from a taste point of view when drinking the beer. I don't treat the water I use in my starters; the water up here is chloraminated and I do boil the starter wort which isn't gonna do much in that regard, but most of the "beer" is poured off before the yeast is pitched anyway, so what little amount is in that little amount that's pitched is going to be even littler in 21/25 litres. I always treat my brewing water though.

@Schikitar it should be enough, but you'll have to crush the thing up into powder before you put it in the water. I actually found the tablets a pain in the arse to work with and switched to powdered potassium met. I just stir the water a bit, and put in 1/5-1/4 of a teaspoon of the stuff. It swirls around and dissolves within seconds. ******* reeks when you open the bag though, a mask might be a good idea.

 

[Muzzanthrope]

I've got campden tablets, would half a tablet to ~36 litres of fairly neutral tap water be sufficient? I'd like to try it on the next brew because I keep detecting an off-flavour that I'm having a hard time identifying the source of (I wish I could describe it - it's sort of medicinal/papery, not overpowering but present)..

Definitely sounds like a phenolic flavour. But keep in mind that there are other factors which can contribute to these flavours: Yeast (commercial and wild), bacteria, tannin from high mash pH or high sparge temps and even produced by algae in water storage before it gets to treatment (is it worse in the Summer?).
How are you currently treating your water?

 

[Schikitar]

How are you currently treating your water?

Not to derail the thread but here is (apparently) my water profile - I haven't measured pH yet, I only just got a meter and haven't opened the box yet..
Alkalinity Bicarbonate (CaCO3) - 16 mg/L
Calcium - 9 mg/L
Chloride - 14 mg/L
Magnesium - 2.13 mg/L
Sodium - 5.6 mg/L
Sulphate - 13.2 mg/L

Using EZWater I have been treating with gypsum, epsom salts, (more recently) calcium chloride and a dash of baking soda. To be honest the best beer I've brewed to date was the first one where I made zero additions, every beer after that I started doing additions as I was having trouble with fermentation but then things started tasting a little.. weird! I made too many changes at once so the last brew I did I replicated that first brew with the exception of adding water additions (10g Gypsum, 5g Epsom Salts,10g Calcium Chloride) and this too tasted slightly weird. The treated water itself tasted fine before I mashed in but the resulting beer also just had this subtle but distinct off-flavour.. next time I'm thinking I'll omit all water additions and maybe just try the campden tablet, I dunno!