New Gear=new Efficiency? Yes

[praxis178]

Ok, so I switched from my old 3/4cup hopper mill (hand cranked coffee mill) to a Marga Mill and now my brew is so strong (4.89kgs grain) that I got a pre boil gravity of 1.077 in 24L of wort, so to get to what I wanted I had to add 15L of water! Now I don't mind getting near twice the beer for my money, but damn that is one hell of a jump in efficiency! Like from 72% to <shudder> 99.9% according to Beersmith.....

I modified the mill as per the instructions in the thread of that name, and the feed gap is set to 0.65mm etc. so what gives? is it the decoction step or did I just step into the twilight zone?

Ok, I'm off to supervise the boil, biggest boil yet, so might pay to what it to keep it out of trouble.

recipe here.

 

[Nick JD]

I sneaked in while you were on the loo and dumped in 2kg of plain white sugaz :lol: :lol:

 

[praxis178]

I sneaked in while you were on the loo and dumped in 2kg of plain white sugaz :lol: :lol:

Woooo, thank God for that, I was really starting to freak out!

 

[Maple]

Really?, are you sure about that?
Looking at the Recipe, the .25kg of rice hulls shouldn't count towards your sugar points either, and I don't think you'd get alot out of melaniodin, so really you're only a tad over 4.5Kg.
did you temp correct, and get a good reading? I think that could be the issue. or maybe your hydro is out, or possibly you grabbed every pppm of sugar avail....but hedging on the first 2.

 

[Wolfy]

Now I don't mind getting near twice the beer for my money, but damn that is one hell of a jump in efficiency! Like from 72% to <shudder> 99.9% according to Beersmith.....

I modified the mill as per the instructions in the thread of that name, and the feed gap is set to 0.65mm etc. so what gives? is it the decoction step or did I just step into the twilight zone?

One would have to guess that the reading or hydro is a bit off.
But if you can repeat that kind of efficiency from home milling and home mash-tun you'd have to be in the running for an award (or job) at some mega-brewery.

I've just got to go down the hardware shop to get some feeler gauges but my marga mill is ready for the last step of the modifications.
But I did think that the marga-modding-threads were talking about a 45 or 60 thou gap or 0.045 - 0.06 inch, which works out about 1.1mm rather than the 0.65mm you've used?
Mind you with that efficiency who's going to complain, whatever you've set works well!

 

[Margwar]

Whish I could be brewing on a Friday afternoon....

 

[praxis178]

Really?, are you sure about that?
Looking at the Recipe, the .25kg of rice hulls shouldn't count towards your sugar points either, and I don't think you'd get alot out of melaniodin, so really you're only a tad over 4.5Kg.
did you temp correct, and get a good reading? I think that could be the issue. or maybe your hydro is out, or possibly you grabbed every pppm of sugar avail....but hedging on the first 2.

Temperature compensating refractometer, took three separate readings/samples cause it just wasn't making sense, so with heart in mouth I added the 15L of water that BS recommended and got the predicted SG.....

I have a sample cooling to back check with my hydrometer, but I'm not expecting it to differ the two instruments cross reference to with in 0.0005 of a gravity unit (if one says 1.045 the other might be differing by +/-0.0005).

I really hope this isn't a start of a new trend in my brewing, but just a one off "mishap".....

 

[praxis178]

Whish I could be brewing on a Friday afternoon....

Self employed, so I get to make the rules! Yea..... really things are just a tab slow right now, so I figured I might as well brew as sit at my desk twiddling my thumbs.

 

[praxis178]

One would have to guess that the reading or hydro is a bit off.
But if you can repeat that kind of efficiency from home milling and home mash-tun you'd have to be in the running for an award (or job) at some mega-brewery.

I've just got to go down the hardware shop to get some feeler gauges but my marga mill is ready for the last step of the modifications.
But I did think that the marga-modding-threads were talking about a 45 or 60 thou gap or 0.045 - 0.06 inch, which works out about 1.1mm rather than the 0.65mm you've used?
Mind you with that efficiency who's going to complain, whatever you've set works well!

Most of the references I've seen (US based forums etc.) suggest a gap of ~0.60-0.75mm (in inches originally), so not having a handy combo to give 0.6 or 0.75 went with the 0.65 I did have. Not much flour, mostly 1-1.5mm "chunks" and crumbly grains, I did dampen the grain first though....

 

[Crusty]

I reckon efficiency is off somewhere. Pretty suss with them numbers for that grain bill. I had a similar drama last weekend with an American Amber Ale & pre-boil gravity was supposed to be 1.033 & I came in at 1.056, 25l batch, 70% efficiency. First time using Beer Tools Pro & shat myself. Had to add 22l of water to get to my target pre-boil gravity & ended up with a 54l boil instead of 32l. Had to madly split up the boil & do all sorts of hop adjustments for seperate boils. Turns out I hit 85.2% efficiency which I was pretty pleased about. I set my Barley Crusher to 1mm & now collect runnings after 60min sacc rest & do two equal sparge runoffs. Efficiency has really picked up since doing this.

Crusty

 

[TidalPete]

Thomas,

I have a temp correcting refracto & from experience do not trust the initial reading. Let the refracto (With sample) sit for a few minutes then take the reading.
Never used a Marga Mill but use a 40 thousands of an inch gap in my Crankenstein (No idea what that is in metric) to get very good efficiency so maybe give that a go?
Perhaps you haven't set up your BeerSmith "Equipment" correctly & that's why you're getting this impossible efficiency for your gravity reading? Take a look & get back to us.
Haven't had BeerSmith all that long myself (Ex ProMash groupie) but have found their forums an excellent source of information.
Take it as read you've checked your hydrometer in distilled water @ 20 deg c?

T

 

[praxis178]

I reckon efficiency is off somewhere. Pretty suss with them numbers for that grain bill. I had a similar drama last weekend with an American Amber Ale & pre-boil gravity was supposed to be 1.033 & I came in at 1.056, 25l batch, 70% efficiency. First time using Beer Tools Pro & shat myself. Had to add 22l of water to get to my target pre-boil gravity & ended up with a 54l boil instead of 32l. Had to madly split up the boil & do all sorts of hop adjustments for seperate boils. Turns out I hit 85.2% efficiency which I was pretty pleased about. I set my Barley Crusher to 1mm & now collect runnings after 60min sacc rest & do two equal sparge runoffs. Efficiency has really picked up since doing this.

Crusty

I know that the real efficiency can't be that high, but it's what I had to set the efficiency to in BS to get it's estimated OG to match my measured OG. Now I know my gear is not at fault (all recently calibrated) and I did multiple measurements as I didn't initially believe what I was seeing.

I plan to repeat this brew when I have some free fermentation space as exactly as I can to see if I get the same "efficiency".

Hmmm 15L of "free" beer, not a bad thing! :beer:

 

[Screwtop]

Thomas,

I have a temp correcting refracto & from experience do not trust the initial reading. Let the refracto (With sample) sit for a few minutes then take the reading.

A BIG +1

I know that the real efficiency can't be that high, but it's what I had to set the efficiency to in BS to get it's estimated OG to match my measured OG. Now I know my gear is not at fault (all recently calibrated) and I did multiple measurements as I didn't initially believe what I was seeing.

I plan to repeat this brew when I have some free fermentation space as exactly as I can to see if I get the same "efficiency".

Hmmm 15L of "free" beer, not a bad thing! :beer:

Did you click on Brewhouse Efficiency on the Beersmith recipe page and adjust the volumes and gravities in the 3 sections Efficiency into Boiler and Efficiency into Fermenter and Brewhouse Efficiency to determine your actual Brewhouse Efficiency?????????????????

Something is not kosher!!

Screwy

 

[praxis178]

A BIG +1



Did you click on Brewhouse Efficiency on the Beersmith recipe page and adjust the volumes and gravities in the 3 sections Efficiency into Boiler and Efficiency into Fermenter and Brewhouse Efficiency to determine your actual Brewhouse Efficiency?????????????????

Something is not kosher!!

Screwy

Yes, which is why I know it's not a real number (one of the out puts gives an efficiency of 109.6%), pencil and paper gives 87.4%. Way better than usual, but I just don't get the change, can changing mill really have that big an impact? The grist didn't look any different to what the old mill was producing....

Might need to do a side by side extraction test for those two mills, just mill a cup of grain in each and measure the sg of the resulting cup-o-wort to track this down....

Edit: spelling

 

[praxis178]

Thomas,

I have a temp correcting refracto & from experience do not trust the initial reading. Let the refracto (With sample) sit for a few minutes then take the reading.
Never used a Marga Mill but use a 40 thousands of an inch gap in my Crankenstein (No idea what that is in metric) to get very good efficiency so maybe give that a go?
Perhaps you haven't set up your BeerSmith "Equipment" correctly & that's why you're getting this impossible efficiency for your gravity reading? Take a look & get back to us.
Haven't had BeerSmith all that long myself (Ex ProMash groupie) but have found their forums an excellent source of information.
Take it as read you've checked your hydrometer in distilled water @ 20 deg c?

T

yeh, I calibrated both not more than a week ago..... I back checked the efficiency on paper, with a pencil no less, and got 87.4% a number I can believe, it's high, but not impossibly high!

 

[Wolfy]

Never used a Marga Mill but use a 40 thousands of an inch gap in my Crankenstein (No idea what that is in metric) to get very good efficiency so maybe give that a go?

0.040 inch = 1.016mm
Thomas J. said his crush-gap is set to 0.65mm, so in theory (with no stuck sparge) his efficiency could be slightly higher.

Now I don't know what to set my Marga to, I was going to go with either 0.04 or 0.06 inch as suggested elsewhere on these forums, but since Thomas J.'s is about half that, it's tempting to make it a bit finer.

I'd be more inclined to believe 87.4%, so re-work your software till it gives you the same number, maybe the software's volume was out a a bit.

 

[Screwtop]

yeh, I calibrated both not more than a week ago..... I back checked the efficiency on paper, with a pencil no less, and got 87.4% a number I can believe, it's high, but not impossibly high!

If you're talking Mash Efficiency then 87% is not unusual, I usually achieve around 90%. But Brewhouse Efficiency nooooooooooo.

Screwy

 

[TidalPete]

If you're talking Mash Efficiency then 87% is not unusual, I usually achieve around 90%. But Brewhouse Efficiency nooooooooooo.

Screwy

I have the same problem as Screwy.
My Brewhouse Efficiency is always a few points behind Mash Efficiency & have yet to work out why?

(one of the out puts gives an efficiency of 109.6%)

Don't know about anyone else but I find that if, for example, I estimate an efficiency of 89% in BeerSmith when formulating a recipe & exceed that in my Mash efficiency for the same recipe, then the mash efficiency for that recipe shows over 100%.

T

 

[sav]

Self employed, so I get to make the rules! Yea..... really things are just a tab slow right now, so I figured I might as well brew as sit at my desk twiddling my thumbs.

Where are ya on the sunny coast Im in caloundra
sav

 

[Screwtop]

I have the same problem as Screwy.
My Brewhouse Efficiency is always a few points behind Mash Efficiency & have yet to work out why?

Kettle efficiency lets me down Pete, drops my Brewhouse Eff.

Screwy