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Masha

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Hey all,

I got a beer about ready to bottle and I'm thinking I should brew a fresh wort to rack on to (part of) the old yeast cake.

I have about a kg and a half of LDME, a can of coopers mexican cervesa, plenty of dex, about 900g of coopers brewing sugar, simcoe, hallertau, and cascade hops.

But what I need is a decent recipe using some of the above. Probably want to steer away from the cascade where possible since its been a major component of my last 3 brews but a glowing recommendation for a particular recipe could sway me. If anyone's got a good one sitting around which fits the bill I'd appreciate it.

I can probably get to the HBS to pick up a few bits for a brew that's close to the ingredients list but I dont really want to go too far outside of what I already have in the cupboard.

Thanks in advance.
 

yum beer

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Keep it simple,
can of cerveza,
1kg LDM
500gm Dex.

Easy drinking but getting into the wrong part of the year for enjoting..will take 6 weeks+ in the bottle to be its best.
 

Yob

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You will only need about a good cup of well mixed slurry Masha, I would usually advocate rinsing but I dont want to bombard you with all that info at this point, though it is well worth looking into. (The Rinsing Yeast Thread)

Id also be using some of those hops. 10g of Simcoe and 15g Cascade as a dry hop on about day 4-5 should add some excitement to what can be a pretty ordinary can by itself (IMO)

If it were me, id also not be adding more than about 300g of dex, to any kit brew really, again IMO, but apart from that as per what Yum said,

Cheers
 

carniebrew

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Masha, how about this for a simple recipe;
Ferment Volume: 23 litres - IBU: 28ish - ABV: 5.2% - OG/FG 1047/1011

Boil 20 grams of Simcoe in 2 litres of water for 20 minutes.
Strain the boil into your fermenter
Add 1.5kg of light DME and 100 grams of dextrose, make sure it's all mixed in
Add contents of the Mexican Cerveza can, mix again (you should have heated the can on the stove too, as per the instructions on the can)
Fill to 23 litres.

If you want to fancy things up, you could add 200 grams of that 1.5kg of LDME to the start of the boil, according to some people you'll get a better result than boiling in water alone...but lots of kit beers from home brew shops just suggest boiling in water.
You could also tip the entire boil into your fermenter, hops and all, rather than straining it if you want more hoppiness. And you could add another 10 grams or so of Simcoe with 10 minutes left in the boil for more hop aroma.
You could make it 24 litres if you are happy with 5% abv (after bottle conditioning), it'll also drop the IBU by a point or so. But you get 3 more stubbies out of it....
If you're using an existing yeast cake, I'm assuming you'll be mixing the beer up in another fermenter, then transferring onto your yeast? I can't imagine pouring 2 litres of just boiled water onto the yeast cake would be a great idea, not that I've ever done it....

EDIT: expanded the bit about adding dme to boil
 

Yob

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carniebrew said:
If you want to fancy things up, you could add 200 grams of that 1.5kg of LDME to the start of the boil, you'll get a bit more extracted out of the hops..
eh? Hows that work then??

Re the yeast, presumably, he will take his cup of yeast, cover with glad wrap, rinse/wash/sanitise FV, mix brew then pitch yeast.
 

carniebrew

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There seems to be a train of thought that boiling hops in wort will extract/isomerize more alpha acids from the hops than just boiling in water.
 

Liam_snorkel

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carniebrew - don't confuse bitterness additions with flavour / aroma.
 

Amber Fluid

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carniebrew said:
There seems to be a train of thought that boiling hops in wort will extract/isomerize more alpha acids from the hops than just boiling in water.
Even though it is not recommended due to other undesirable factors but this is incorrect. You will in fact get more utilisation from hops by boiling in water.
 

carniebrew

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Thanks Amber.

My software tells me I'd get around 13 IBU when boiling simcoe in 1040'ish wort for 15 minutes. I was assuming it might be a little less than that if boiled in water. Can someone say what difference to expect from boiling in water for 15 minutes vs boiling it in wort for the same time? And suggest any recipe variations for Masha?
 

manticle

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Higher gravity will supposedly reduce isomerisatrion/utilisation. Lower gravity will increase but too low and harsh compounds may supposedly be extracted as well - 1040 is recommended because it's a middle ground (1030-1050 is an OK range).

This is the gist of the theory behind most of the brewing software programs and why your software will tell you you need x times as many hops to hit the same IBU in a 1090 wort as with a 1050 wort.

There are various studies that have tested wort gravity and hop utilisation and the relationship may not be as linear as first thought, nor may it be the gravity that is actually influencing things - break material and batch size are two other factors - there are probably more.

However boiling in water will certainly not reduce the utilisation and the utilisation suggested by software is based on empirical observations and should bevalid, regardless whether it is sugar levels or proteinaceous material that is causing the decrease in bitterness extraction.
 

Masha

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Thanks for the help boys, But I've been thiniking about it overnight and I think I have a plan... A kind of hybrid, top fermented pilsener. A Pilsenale if you will...

To clarify a few things, I'll be scooping out the bulk of the yeast cake from the fermenter and racking cooled wort straight on top of a cup or so of slurry.

After trying a couple of no-chill brews and ending up with wildly variable results in terms of bitterness versus flavour/aroma I have abandoned the method. Basically I'm now working under the assumption that leaving the wort hot for that long isomerises a large measure of your volatile flavour compounds into alpha acids (this is a purely subjective assesment though). Anyway in the absence of an immersion chiller I'm doing the "stand-kettle-in-sink-of-cold-water, change-water-every-5mins" cooling method which seems to be giving me better results on low IBU beers.

Since the no-chill failures have made me OCD about the heat my late hop additions are exposed to I absolutely love Carniebrew's suggestion boil the flavour hops separately in a smaller volume as it means I can cool that portion super quick, and hopefully get the best out of my Hallertau.

Part of the reason for designing this "Pilsenale" is because the yeast cake I'll be using is Danstar Nottingham. I've never seen a yeast floc like this stuff before! It's friggin incredible! In some places its actually flocced against the vertical side of the fermenter, it looks like nothing so much as dried paint. Anyway with this yeast and a secondary fermentation I'm thinking I should be able to turn out a very clear finished beer. The fact that this is all extract with minimal proteins or break material to worry about should help here too.

Anyway to me all that calls for a recipe which is light coloured, light bodied, and delicately hopped. A-La Pilsenale! Lemme Know what you think.

Ferment Volume: 17 litres - IBU: 37/38 - ABV: 4.9% - OG/FG 1045/1011

Ingredients List
1 Can Coopers Cervesa
.5kg LDME

.3 Dex

5g Simcoe
35G Hallertau

Add 15L water and to kettle, bring to boil, add 5g Simcoe. Boil for 40min

Make 2L of 1040 wort with LDME and bring to boil. To the 2L add
10g Hallertau @ 15mins
15g Hallertau @ 10mins
10g Hallertau @ 5mins
Chill

In the last 10 mins of the 15L boil add Coopers Can, remaining DME and 150g Dex.
Chill

Add to fermenter, top up to 17L

taste on day 5 and decide whether to dry hop in secondary

Bulk prime with remaining 150g Dex

Hopefully boiling the bittering hops in plain water for 50min won't bring out any real grassiness as were only talking about 5g in 17L.
Any suggestions/improvements welcome.
 

Yob

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ern.. eh? :blink:

are you running this through any software? 15lt's of water boil for 40 mins? Why? Dats alot of feckin water to boil for a kit brew...

Im confused as hell by the last post here.. Ive read it 3 times and am more confused than when I started.

No need to boil the can..er.. where is the other 150 dex? Secondary? Why?

Sorry mate, I think you have things a little muddled..

cmon carnibrew... help a brother out and follow up on your advice ;)
 

carniebrew

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I have to admit that last post from Masha threw me too. Very different to what I was expecting given the original post!

We've gone from 'I've got a few bits lying around, what should I make' to a no-chiller saying "...isomerises a large measure of your volatile flavour compounds into alpha acids"....who then talks about flocculation & yeast slurry but suggests boiling a kit can. I stared at it for 5 minutes last night and couldn't work out what the hell to say! I half feel like someone's pulling my leg? But then he did say he absolutely loved my idea so it was all I could do to not mash the like button... :D
 

Masha

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Hehe yeah I guess the recipe breakdown was a little "non-linear".

The additional 150g dex is for bulk priming, goes in the bottling bucket but adds to alc/vol so I figured Id mention it so that anyone checking my figures wouldn't get confused.

Boiling the full 15L was mainly to drive off chlorine/chloramine/flouride etc cause I don't have a water filter. Doing it for 40-50 mins is to fully isomerise the alpha acids in the bittering hops, and throwing the extract in at the end was just to ensure proper sterilisation of the finished wort.

The whole thing went through Ianh's Kit and extract brewing spreadsheet.

Edit: I just re-read my last post and I did take a bit of a tangent hey. Basically I was trying to explain the reasons based on my experience why I pretty well abandoned everyones suggestions/recipes...
 

carniebrew

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I haven't done it myself, but I can't get my head around re-boiling the contents of a pre-hopped kit can. Just feels wrong. Probably not gonna do it any harm, but it's sterile in the can already I'd hope so can't see why you'd need to bother. Is it something you have done before?
 

Masha

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Yup. For all my brews, everything that goes in the fermenter, dry hops aside, gets at least a cursory boil.

DME is probably pretty sterile but I'm not altogether confident with LME, canned or otherwise. This is mainly based on the coopers real ale can which came with my kit. I never used it and it sat on a warm shelf for 2.5 years until I rediscovered brewing. By then the sides of the can were bulging out all over the place. Needless to say it got chucked unopened.

Probably just a dud can but I figure boiling the lot is just good practice. Always careful not to boil very long though otherwise it darkens the wort.
 

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