Move From Biab To Mash Tun - Need Advice On Build

[neo__04]

Hey all,

Have done a few BIAB brews in the past and am now looking at moving to a Mashtun to save all the mess of the bag.

I am by no means any expert, but would like some recommendations on mash tun design from those who have done it in the past.

Going to buy an esky of some variety. Any recommendation on shape & size, just for single batches, Rectangular, square, round? Also what type of extraction method inside? Stainless braided hose, copper manifold, ss false bottom?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

 

[Pennywise]

My 25L willow esky is ok for standard (5% ABV) batch's, just. It gets pretty damn full with a mash out. I tend to batch sparge unless doing an ordinay bitter or something lower in alc. If I was to buy an esky for single batch's again I'd look for about 30L I think, the willow esky's seem to hold temp pretty well as I check mine after the mash and it's usualy the same temp or half a degree lower than when it went in. Also I have no issues with using just a copper manifold (mine's pretty dodgy) and getting around 75% eff from the mash, but I wish I had a falsie because I'm sure that would increase eff over a manifold.

Not sure you'd have less mess to clean up switching from biab to MT though, bag vs MT, grain needs to be taken out of both...

 

[neo__04]

Thanks for the reply,

Sounds like good advice, I'll keep an eye out for somethin in the 30l range. I just figuire with an esky i can drain it, then empty the contents straight into the bin. With Esky mash tuns, do people normally put a thermometer in it permanently? or just stick one in the top when required?

Thanks again

 

[Pennywise]

Fitting a decent one to the tun would be preferable, as 1-2 degrees makes a difference. I don't, I use a stick thermometer which I'm happy with but with the tun I'm building ATM for doubles I'll be fitting a Mash Master one.

 

[Bribie G]

What mess of a bag? I just hoisted and drained mine, swung it over and dropped into a big pail to take it round to the Stepdaughter's chooks and I'll hose it out while I'm over there. Do mash tuns clean themselves?

 

[Nick JD]

When you get your first stuck sparge, or just get tired of waiting for an hour for it to drain ... you can use the esky for keeping beer and food cold, so it won't be a total loss

 

[real_beer]

Hey all,

Have done a few BIAB brews in the past and am now looking at moving to a Mashtun to save all the mess of the bag.

I am by no means any expert, but would like some recommendations on mash tun design from those who have done it in the past.

Going to buy an esky of some variety. Any recommendation on shape & size, just for single batches, Rectangular, square, round? Also what type of extraction method inside? Stainless braided hose, copper manifold, ss false bottom?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Hard to find better advice than here:

http://www.howtobrew.com/appendices/appendixD.html

Great stuff.

 

[Silo Ted]

When you get your first stuck sparge, or just get tired of waiting for an hour for it to drain ... you can use the esky for keeping beer and food cold, so it won't be a total loss

haha, and regret forever that he'll be labelled a BIAB traitor.

Mate, any esky will do. Whatever you can find that's cheap. Although you should really consider one to handle double batches for if the situation arises in future (or you want to do a big beer). Twice as much capacity is unlikely to cost you 8twice as much $$$, so think big !

 

[neo__04]

Hmm..

And after reading up on stuck sparges and 20 min drain times... Im rethinking my idea of bothering with a mash tun.

Is there really a benefit in doing a 2v or 3v setup over BIAB for your average brewer?

What am i going to gain by adding a mash tun to my brewing process?

 

[Pennywise]

The only advantage I can see is AFAIK biab generally has lower mash efficiencies, Don't quote me on that though as I don't really read the biab threads it's just something I remember reading on here somewhere. I prefer MT because it's what I've learnt from the start, and I'm comfortable with it. Both methods make great beer so really I'd say it comes down to using slightly more grain (maybe) at the end of the day

 

[Bribie G]

At the risk of sounding like a cracked record (in the days that there were records and they cracked)
When AG home brewing took off over the last few decades the early "pioneers" such as Dave Line, the US equivalents, then later Australians - the reasoning obviously went:

OK we want to make commercial quality or better beers at home from grains. How do the commercials do it? Well they have been doing a tried and tested procedure for the last few centuries and if it ain't broke why bother fixing it, so let's make a scaled down version of this and we can't go wrong:



And indeed you can't go wrong. I was at Murrays Brewery two weeks ago and that's exactly what they are doing there, although all on the same floor level aided by electric pumps. They have to do it that way, it's the only way they can handle hundreds if not thousands of barrels of beer, tonnes of grain etc. At Murrays they were doughing in about 25 sacks of Maris Otter when I got there - that's like an entire Bulk buy going into the Mash Tun in 20 minutes

However at home we're only interested in 23 L, or maybe 50 L and we can take a different angle - instead of removing the wort from the grain and sending it to the kettle, why not remove the grain from the wort and it's sitting right there in the kettle. I know that's very simplistic but that's at the heart of BIAB.

<cracked record> if you want to pop out to KMart you don't climb into a little scaled down version of a Kenworth B Double, you fire up the barina or hop on your scooter.

having said all that, if you already have a HERMS or a 3V set up and are happy with the results, as said above if it ain't broke why fix it. Although a couple have come across to the baggy side simply for the space / convenience aspect.

Edit: Actually at Murrays, if I got it right as the bling was quite overwhelming, they mash in a vessel, transfer to another vessel for "lautering" then transfer the wort back to the original vessel for boiling - so it's different to the traditional "3 vessel" system in that there's no separate mash tun or boiler but also a lauter tun. Maybe we could redesignate Brew in a Bag as Lauter in a bag, although LIAB doesn't have quite the same ring :lol:

 

[argon]

I retired the bag not too long ago, moving to 3V. I did it cause I was attempting to do double batches in a 50L pot and was a real pain juggling volumes, top ups, dunk sparges etc. It was very messy trying to squeeze to much out of too small a pot. OG and efficiency was also a problem, as is fairly widely accepted for biab, as the OG went up the efficiency went down. When I was doing single batches it was fine, but I don't get too many opportunities to brew these days,so when I do I go for volume. I now brew with a 50hlt, 50mt, 80kt and it's a lot less hassle to brews double batch at any OG as my efficiency does not differ based on OG.

Standard biab is no messier than 3V. Once you introduce excessive squeezing, dunk sparging etc, it can become quite messy. But you still have to handle the grain when cleaning out the mash tun anyway... So 3V can be messy too.

IMO if your current biab procedure is simple, without the extra faffing about... Stay as you are, your beers will still be excellent. If it's just because you want to, then fine go for it... No need to explain yourself. When I really think about my own reasoning, that was really my motivation... Sometimes adding more gear/complexity is some of the attraction of the hobby.

 

[Silo Ted]

The only advantage I can see is AFAIK biab generally has lower mash efficiencies, Don't quote me on that though as I don't really read the biab threads it's just something I remember reading on here somewhere. I prefer MT because it's what I've learnt from the start, and I'm comfortable with it. Both methods make great beer so really I'd say it comes down to using slightly more grain (maybe) at the end of the day

Out of interest, Pennywise, what is your efficiency % on your system ? Repeated 79% on BIAB is nothing to be frowned upon.

 

[felten]

The only advantage I can see is AFAIK biab generally has lower mash efficiencies, Don't quote me on that though as I don't really read the biab threads it's just something I remember reading on here somewhere. I prefer MT because it's what I've learnt from the start, and I'm comfortable with it. Both methods make great beer so really I'd say it comes down to using slightly more grain (maybe) at the end of the day

Not quite true, the efficiency shouldn't be that different to a 3v batch sparge. Since my first BIAB brew I've been averaging 80% efficiency for knockout volume, though efficiency into the fermenter is less than a 3v system because of increased kettle trub losses.

Speaking in general terms, with a no-sparge BIAB when your grist increases, you will lose more sugar to the grain absorption; but BIAB mashes lose less to grain absorption than a mashtun mash, so in practice it equals out somewhat.


Some of the benefits of having a mashtun that I can think of are; having a set grain bed so you can vorlauf to clear the runnings and decrease your kettle trub losses, being able to fly sparge if you desire, and not having your mash volume limited by your kettle size.

 

[stux]

The only advantage I can see is AFAIK biab generally has lower mash efficiencies, Don't quote me on that though as I don't really read the biab threads it's just something I remember reading on here somewhere. I prefer MT because it's what I've learnt from the start, and I'm comfortable with it. Both methods make great beer so really I'd say it comes down to using slightly more grain (maybe) at the end of the day

90+% not good enough for a mash efficiency?

Bog standard BIAB with a Mashout will often get you 80-85%

Apply a bit more effort during the mash/mashout/squeeze and you can get that to 90-95%

The loss of efficiency comes at the end of the boil where you have a lot more trub than a mash filterbed system

With a BIAB mash you can do direct heating. Which makes 5 step ramped mashes trivial. This is very hard with an esky

You're going to have to clean your kettle anyway... so *only* have to clean the bag as an extra

Mash Tuns afaict make sense if you want to do greater than say 100L batches or if you want to be able to pipeline batches so you can have one batch in the mashtun while you're boiling the other.



If your issue is cleaning the bag, I'd suggest you're not doing it right

 

[Pennywise]

Out of interest, Pennywise, what is your efficiency % on your system ? Repeated 79% on BIAB is nothing to be frowned upon.

Is 79% mash eff the norm with biab? I agree it's deffinatly nothing to be frowned apon. My mash eff since going full volume boils, hence sparging more than I previously did is 75-80%, last batch was 77%. I'll have to add though that my manifold is pretty half arsed done & sits right along the edge of the MT, so I assume I lose a bit there due to channeling, but it's consistant so I don't feel the need to change just yet, not till I get my bigger MT sorted

 

[stux]

I retired the bag not too long ago, moving to 3V. I did it cause I was attempting to do double batches in a 50L pot and was a real pain juggling volumes, top ups, dunk sparges etc. It was very messy trying to squeeze to much out of too small a pot. OG and efficiency was also a problem, as is fairly widely accepted for biab, as the OG went up the efficiency went down. When I was doing single batches it was fine, but I don't get too many opportunities to brew these days,so when I do I go for volume. I now brew with a 50hlt, 50mt, 80kt and it's a lot less hassle to brews double batch at any OG as my efficiency does not differ based on OG.

Standard biab is no messier than 3V. Once you introduce excessive squeezing, dunk sparging etc, it can become quite messy. But you still have to handle the grain when cleaning out the mash tun anyway... So 3V can be messy too.

IMO if your current biab procedure is simple, without the extra faffing about... Stay as you are, your beers will still be excellent. If it's just because you want to, then fine go for it... No need to explain yourself. When I really think about my own reasoning, that was really my motivation... Sometimes adding more gear/complexity is some of the attraction of the hobby.

Ever considered trying a double batch BIAB in your 80L kettle?

I bet its a nice size for a double batch. But you're right, efficiency does go down as the gravity of the first runnings go up, but I think that applies to normal 3V as well

 

[AndrewQLD]

Looks like the first four replies are all you will get on topic Neo, as usual these threads always seem to turn into a for and against argument.

As far as your question goes a good shape for an esky to use as a mash tun is the cylindrical drink eskies, they are the easiest to fit out with round false bottoms readily available from a few of the online brew shops and you can even get bulkhead fittings like this one here to make life even easier.
I use a braided hose in the bottom of my 50 lt stainless steel mash tun and it works really well and is also pretty easy to fit and cheaper than the premade false bottoms.
Good luck with your new system if you do go ahead with it.

Andrew

 

[felten]

Looks like the first four replies are all you will get on topic Neo, as usual these threads always seem to turn into a for and against argument.

Neo asked what the differences were, he got what he asked for

Is there really a benefit in doing a 2v or 3v setup over BIAB for your average brewer?

What am i going to gain by adding a mash tun to my brewing process?

 

[drsmurto]

Hmm..

And after reading up on stuck sparges and 20 min drain times... Im rethinking my idea of bothering with a mash tun.

Is there really a benefit in doing a 2v or 3v setup over BIAB for your average brewer?

What am i going to gain by adding a mash tun to my brewing process?

Stuck sparge? No reason why a mashtun and good false bottom is any different to BIAB.

BIAB is the cheap way of AG brewing or at least provides a cheaper entry into brewing (I've seen some high tech BIAB rigs that are far more complex than my basic 3V system).

For that reason i have and will continue to recommend the Beerbelly fasle bottom. I regualry brew with rye at levels up to 40% without even using rice hulls and have no issues. The reason is the false bottom, it's a well designed and well built piece of kit and has seen me through 4 years of AG brewing without skipping a beat.

No more effort involved in cleaning the tun - take it down to the chook run, dump, squirt with a hose and leave to drain.

Mash tun is a 55L willow esky, $20 off ebay and gets used as an esky when not being used as a mash tun.
HLT is an old electric preserving urn, temp dial still in degree fahrenheit.
Kettle is a 50L DAB keg bought from a fellow AHBer.

Nothing against BIAB, just thought i would help the OP out by answering his question instead of derailing him.