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BIAB flat bottles?

Discussion in 'All Grain Brewing' started by smelly_elderberry, 28/8/18.

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  1. smelly_elderberry

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    Posted 28/8/18
    Hello All,

    I am trying to understand why when I do BIAB's, it seems that the bottle conditioning is failing. With slightly odd flavours and most bottles not having any bubbles or head!
    I have done the same recipe on my father in laws normal kit (giant stainless pot, burner, esky mash tun) into cube for no chill and that worked beautifully.
    But on my kit (2 stainless 19ltr pots, biab bag) into same cube for no chill it is just ..... not good.
    The extraction was better when i did the BIAB, final gravity was about the same (1013 from 1050 OG). Yeast was always S04. Waited at least 2 weeks on all occasions for conditioning.
    I have done the BIAB twice now, and twice the same issue has happened. I have made batches of extract and wort cube between these attempts, and they are always ended up nice....

    The only difference I can think was in the BIAB case, I don't have a tap + false bottom, so I get all the trub + break into the fermenter. None of which ends up in teh bottle.... The local brewshop suggested that I may have waited too long in the fermenter, and all the yeast settled out, I wonder if the trub is causeing excessive settling with the yeast and so its just not getting into the bottle?

    On my first attempt, some of the bottles tasted kind of metallic, all where kind of sweet. The latest batch isnt as bad, but still no life. When opening the bottles I do get a slight hiss, so its at least tried?

    Anyone experienced anything similar, or have suggestions?
    I'm thinking of getting a weldless tap for one of the pots, and using some sort of fine stainless mesh to strain?

    Any help would be excellent!!
     
  2. Nizmoose

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    Posted 29/8/18
    First thing that comes to mind is that a few English Ale strains once cold really don't like getting back up and going especially if they're already tired. Next time I'd be interested to see what happens if when bottling, add some US05 to your bottling bucket if you use one so that each bottle gets a dose of yeast to condition the bottles with
     
  3. Schikitar

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    Posted 29/8/18
    You haven't really covered your process, how do you prime? Also, glass or PET bottles and how do you prep them? That's just a starting point, I can't really see an issue with anything else you've mentioned so there's something up with one or more of your processes..

    I've never personally had a problem with S04..
     
  4. pnorkle

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    Posted 29/8/18
    What temp are your bottles sitting at once they've been filled, primed & sealed?
     
    Schikitar and TwoCrows like this.
  5. smelly_elderberry

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    Posted 2/9/18
    Hello all,

    Glass bottles, mix of 750 flip top and stubbies with crown seals.

    Priming rate of 1 drop per small and 2 per big bottle (the coopers drop/tablets).

    Fermented with tap direct into bottles, via tube with "sediment reducer" insert, no extra bottling bucket.

    BIAB was a 90 min mash total. 60 min in first 19ltr pot (at around 66C), reheating when needed to keep the target temp. Then transfered bag into second pot for the last 30 mins. Bag removed and strained.
    Boil as per instructions with hop additions as listed (the 19ltr measurements).
    At end of boil this was syphoned into (a sanitised) cube, with total volume of about 16.5ltrs. (trub and all.....)
    A few days later this was upended into my fermenter, and rinsed out the cube with just off boil water to 19ltrs volume. S04 was rehydrated in some warm water, pitched and was active the next morning. Total ferment time was only 7 days, as it was kept in a warm room, and seemed to maintain around the 18C mark (range of 16-22 were noted as extremes).

    The bottles where stored at probably about 12-14C.
    I did a few other brews around the same time, one with us05 (a porter cube) and an s04 (double black ipa cube), with the starndard 2 week condition time these are all very nice and carbonated....

    This is why I get the gut feeling its all down to the turb?....
     

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  6. garage_life

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    Posted 13/9/18
    Try warming one or two bottles to 20 deg C and see if they come up. I've had a few 04 brews that were heavy with trub / adjuncts stall out and be hard to restart. Raising the temp and a shake might get it going and at least know the yeast is at fault. Metallic taste is probably oxygen introduction when transfer / bottling.
     
  7. pnorkle

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    Posted 13/9/18
    US05 Recommended fermentation temps is 18-28 deg C
    S04 is 15-20 deg C.

    As "Rick" above says, move them to a warmer spot, the yeast has likely gone dormant.
     
  8. MHB

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    Posted 13/9/18
    Sounds like the last couple of posters are going in the right direction.
    The equipment you made the wort on doesn't matter, it isn't the fault of BIAB.
    After you ferment the wort, say you started at 1.050 and finished at 1.010, when you prime the bottles you are just increasing the available sugar a little bit (same as (roughly) starting at 1.051) the yeast is quite capable of eating that little extra sugar and making extra CO2 for fizz.
    About the only things that will stop the yeast conditioning the beer are -
    Being outside the temperature range for the yeast (too hot or cold)
    Sudden temperature changes, remember that big volumes change temperature much more slowly than do small volumes. yeast likes stable temperatures, i.e. if it drops too low at night it will go dormant and not wake up during the day...
    Few other things will stop/slow the conditioning.
    Being right up near the alcohol tolerance (attenuation limit) for the yeast, usually >8-10% ABV
    Really badly abused (old, tired, stressed) yeast
    Trub - Not really a problem I have encountered, thinking about it, I suppose enough trub would prevent/slow the yeast's ability to access the sugar.

    Going on with the trub issue, BIAB as a process does lend itself to having more trub in the kettle (mostly fine flour that goes through the bag and more high molecular weight protein). Most other processes use the grist as a filter bed to remove flour and protein that coagulates at mashing temperatures. This results in much cleaner wort going to the kettle.
    Its good brewing practice to leave all (well as much as possible) of the trub in the kettle. Kettle design and a good whirlpool will help, but leaving some wort in the kettle with the trub is really a part of the cost of doing business.
    Wort going to the cube/chiller should be bright and clear (if you are using an immersion chiller you will get cold break - different issue). You really cant filter out break material - hop matter, yes - break material, no
    I suppose what it comes down to is. Is it more important to get 16.5L of wort, or would you prefer 15L of better beer?
    Mark
     
  9. mongey

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    Posted 13/9/18
    I know its no help but i am just starting to drink my first BIAB and I'd say its carbed where id expect it to be . All my beer is in my old garage and its cold out there ,so takes ages in winter .

    I have brewed 3 BIAB batches ( bottling my 2nd and pitching my 3rd from the cube tomorrow ) so I'm no expert at all ,but with my pot I lose 5l of wort to trub and hop matter,so have been calculating for that in my strike water volume . Next brew I am going to get some whirlfloc to see if i can bring that down .
     
  10. smelly_elderberry

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    Posted 16/9/18
    Thanks everyone! I have noticed that this batch has tasted a lot better than the first, so there may have been some aeration or contamination issues with some of the first batch.

    The final 2 bottles of the first batch had become carbonated, so this does lend credence to simply it being too cold and needing to wait longer.
    Whereas the same recipe on other kit was doing during summer months. Again, this is leading to conditioning temperature.

    Now the weather is warming up a little, hopefully a little shake and wait a week or 2 and we shall be good.

    I am thinking of adding a weldless tap on one of the pots, that will make it much easier to transfer the wort, whilst hopefully extracting much less trub too.
     
  11. garage_life

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    Posted 20/9/18 at 11:33 AM
    Whirfloc and hopsock, use a screen or strainer for any chunks. 5l seems excessive, in new to the game too and have a pretty ghetto setup.
     

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