Microbrewery DeadSpace Question?

[the.cassowary]

Good Afternoon all,
I'm about to do my first batch on a microbrewery, and I've been looking up a lot of details about how the 6.6 litre deadspace at the bottom of the microbrewery should be accounted for. I'm not sure I have a grasp on what I need to do to ensure I have the right amount of water for the boil.

My microbrewery has about 6 litres of deadspace under the mash pipe. I put in all my grain details into Brewfather, and it gives me an idea of the amount of water I need for strike and sparge. Do I just add 6 litres to the strike volume? That would mean I'd have more water than the recipe needed, which would result in a lower OG. Do I add 6 litres for the strike, and then take 6 litres away from the recommended sparge volume?

No, I'm not getting super nervous about my first all grain on my new Microbrewery, why do you ask?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Good Afternoon all,
I'm about to do my first batch on a microbrewery, and I've been looking up a lot of details about how the 6.6 litre deadspace at the bottom of the microbrewery should be accounted for. I'm not sure I have a grasp on what I need to do to ensure I have the right amount of water for the boil.

My microbrewery has about 6 litres of deadspace under the mash pipe. I put in all my grain details into Brewfather, and it gives me an idea of the amount of water I need for strike and sparge. Do I just add 6 litres to the strike volume? That would mean I'd have more water than the recipe needed, which would result in a lower OG. Do I add 6 litres for the strike, and then take 6 litres away from the recommended sparge volume?

No, I'm not getting super nervous about my first all grain on my new Microbrewery, why do you ask?

Some will say the dead space is the amount of space under the mash tun others will say under the tap outlet.
Why not try full volume mash? It will cut out the sparge for the price of a little extra grain, so there is about 1 hour sparging and heating up sparge water which you have saved.
You aren't going to get it right on the first time, nor the second or third time. Every brew is a learning curve, take notes about volumes, loss to grain, boil off.
Programs are only a rough guide, it is your observations which will settle you into your own technique.
Just enjoy the ride and the knowledge you will pick up. Maybe start another thread, 'How do you Brew' would be interesting to learn different techniques from other home brewers.

 

[golfandbrew]

Can you send a screenshot of your profile? Better yet is your microbrewery not one of the default profiles in BF?

 

[MHB]

If your system is pumped (it could help if you said what you are using) it isn’t "dead space" as the liquor in that space will be involved in the mash.
Odds on all the water you add will count as mash liquor.

Mark

 

[Sidney Harbour-Bridge]

You probably want to cover the grain in the malt pipe. I'd prepare more water than you think you need and cover the malt with 50 mm of water or as WEAL said do a full volume mash if you can.

If you don't have enough volume for the boil when you remove the malt pipe, you can top it up with more water or some of the extra you prepared if you have an additional vessel to heat/store it in.

We really need an idea of what your system is to better guess at what you need.

 

[golfandbrew]

Don't go the easy way of full volume mash. Learn the finer points of your system so you can adapt and get the most out of it when the time comes that you want to.

When you enter mash tun dead space into the brewfather profile it is referring to the space below your malt pipe. In your case this is the 6.6 litres you have referred too. It will include the 6.6 litres into your required mash volume which is also based off of what you have set for your water to grist ratio. I think you will find 2.5 litres per kilo is quite common. Your sparge volume will be the balance required for your preboil volume. Having more sparge water on hand than is required is also quite common as many brewers will use what is left for cleaning.

Don't get too bogged down in the details there are a lot variables in these BF profiles, but there are also a lot of profiles already in BF for the more popular systems. You can always start with one of them that closely resembles your system and make adjustments as you see fit.

When you choose a profile to start with change the name to "A or 1 (whatever name you give it)" then your new profile will always be at the top of the alphanumeric list even if not set as your default.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I would have thought if there was an easy way and hard way to do something the easy way would trump the hard way. Not only is full volume easy it arguably makes a better beer. Why, well it cuts out the risk of carrying unwanted tannins from the grain. Does it produce a more maltier tasting beer, for me I can smell the malt more but I do like a pronounced hop finish so my taste is on the side of the hops. I have done both sparging and no sparge, there is no way I would go back to sparging the grain.
Heating up and treating sparge water, the tedious task of running the sparge water through slowly, so what does it cost to avoid sparging? Just a few dollars more in the extra grain.
Working out the amount of liquor needed for full volume becomes easy once you know what will be lost to absorption, also far easier to hit your target OG.
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/No_Sparge_Brewing

 

[Dave70]

Put it this way, my Guten has seven litres under the false bottom.
I generally allow three litres per kilo of grain in the mash.
So for five kilos of grain its twenty two total, simply fifteen litres plus seven.
The rest goes to sparge. Easy as pissing on your hand.

As mentioned, full volume is a good option, and one I'll likely be returning to next time round.
And don't get wedded to one method or make brewing a chore, otherwise your gear will wind up on Gumtree before you know it. Plenty of ways to make good beer.

 

[the.cassowary]

Thank you everyone for your input! My system is a pumped system, so I realised the deadspace isn't important, as the liquor is recirculated, so it is just the water amounts I need for the desired final yield.

I used 6kg fermentables (Pilsner and wheat for a Hoegaarden style witbier), with a goal of 30l of wort. I ended up with a preboil of 35 litres, and after 90min boil got down to just under 30. It was a good day, learned a lot, and am already planning my next brew day.

I'm interested in the no-sparge/full volume, however doing the sparge wasn't too much of a grind (I had a separate water boiler), and I want to focus on learning about the big hops and yeast flavour differences before the smaller first runnings/second runnings differences. This time I split the wort into 2 x 15 lots, and added a different yeast to each batch, so I can see how that effects flavour, and see which I like better.

Next time I'm going to do an American Cream Ale, using some corn, and I might hot-cube the boiling wort (as my fermenters might still be occupied). Might try 2 different yeasts again, or I might dry-hop one batch.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[sammyseadog]

Hey Cassowary, I feel your pain! I've moved from a mash tun to the Guten 40 Litre and just watched the video saying I need to add 6.6 litres of deadspace mash water. WTF?!

So, I'm assuming that if I was going to sparge with 16 litres, I'm now sparging with 9.4 litres. Is that correct?

Myabe I'll try the same recipe with full volume next time to see if I can be bothered with sparging any more, but I hav read it makes a tastier beer - of course that might start a wee debate or two!!

 

[the.cassowary]

Hey Cassowary, I feel your pain! I've moved from a mash tun to the Guten 40 Litre and just watched the video saying I need to add 6.6 litres of deadspace mash water. WTF?!

So, I'm assuming that if I was going to sparge with 16 litres, I'm now sparging with 9.4 litres. Is that correct?

Myabe I'll try the same recipe with full volume next time to see if I can be bothered with sparging any more, but I hav read it makes a tastier beer - of course that might start a wee debate or two!!

So, I haven't actually been worried about the "Dead Space", as from what I've read and got advice about, it's not really an issue if you have a recirculating system like the Guten. I've done 3 brews on it so far, and I've hit most of my water levels pre-boil by just following instructions.
I haven't been diligent with recording all the water levels and pre-boil gravities, I'll get better the more I do as I work out the process better.
Here are things i've found during the 3 brew days with the guten:

• The controller is a bit non-intuitive, and I make sure I set timers on my phone rather than rely on the system. I live in Canberra, so water at this elevation boils at a lower temp (97). Sometimes the unit won't start the boil timer, as it never actually reaches 100 degrees.
• I've usually have 4-5 hours I can set aside for brewing, so I don't mind sparging. More sugar = more efficiency, but I'm not trying to save time anywhere.
• The big plus is that it makes brewing so much more fun, and I'm really enjoying using it.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

So, I haven't actually been worried about the "Dead Space", as from what I've read and got advice about, it's not really an issue if you have a recirculating system like the Guten. I've done 3 brews on it so far, and I've hit most of my water levels pre-boil by just following instructions.
I haven't been diligent with recording all the water levels and pre-boil gravities, I'll get better the more I do as I work out the process better.
Here are things i've found during the 3 brew days with the guten:

• The controller is a bit non-intuitive, and I make sure I set timers on my phone rather than rely on the system. I live in Canberra, so water at this elevation boils at a lower temp (97). Sometimes the unit won't start the boil timer, as it never actually reaches 100 degrees.
• I've usually have 4-5 hours I can set aside for brewing, so I don't mind sparging. More sugar = more efficiency, but I'm not trying to save time anywhere.
• The big plus is that it makes brewing so much more fun, and I'm really enjoying using it.

As long as the grain is fully submersed when you dough in then there is no need to worry about the liquor under the grain basket. The grain needs to be submerged to convert the starch.
If you enjoy sparging then carry all well and good, but higher efficiency doesn't translate to better beer. A full volume mash will extract as much sugar as a sparged mash it just needs the extra grain to hit the target ABV.
Sparging when done slowly and at the right pH will work well, as mentioned on post 10 it is debatable which beer between full volume and a sparged beer would turn out better. The thing about no sparge is the elimination of drawing tannins along with the sparge water.
It is a great hobby, I sometimes think brewing beer is just about as enjoyable as drinking it.
I find the same with gardening, all the prep work and nurturing the seedlings gives as much satisfaction as consuming the end product, the difference is though get it wrong and have to wait a year to have another crack.

 

[the.cassowary]

As long as the grain is fully submersed when you dough in then there is no need to worry about the liquor under the grain basket. The grain needs to be submerged to convert the starch.
If you enjoy sparging then carry all well and good, but higher efficiency doesn't translate to better beer. A full volume mash will extract as much sugar as a sparged mash it just needs the extra grain to hit the target ABV.
Sparging when done slowly and at the right pH will work well, as mentioned on post 10 it is debatable which beer between full volume and a sparged beer would turn out better. The thing about no sparge is the elimination of drawing tannins along with the sparge water.
It is a great hobby, I sometimes think brewing beer is just about as enjoyable as drinking it.
I find the same with gardening, all the prep work and nurturing the seedlings gives as much satisfaction as consuming the end product, the difference is though get it wrong and have to wait a year to have another crack.

I think the real reason I sparge is the 'Tradition Fallacy' - It must be important if it's the way it's always been done. I think new brewers like me are sometimes a little too worried about making a 'bad' brew, so we tend to trust doing more than doing less. I've even seen posts and youtube videos (one even came out today from David Heath) that show it doesn't really matter, because it's all personal taste, yet here I am, still sparging (cognitive dissonance?).

The other thing I find, not frustrating but maybe uncomfortable (just for me), is that Home Brewing is essentially controlled chaos. Unless you're a lab, or have a massive set up, it's very difficult to pinpoint what is best practice. For example, if I have 2 brews, one sparge and one no sparge, I'd have to brew the same beer twice, ferment under the same circumstances, and even then how would I know if the one I like better is because of sparging, or is it a slight ph difference, or did it cool at a different rate, or was less oxygen added to one during batch priming etc. . I'm not saying this needs a solution, it's just a combination of me being analytical (wanting to know why) and lazy (not wanting to really work hard to find out).

Don't get me wrong, I'm super enjoying this as a hobby. I'm just starting to move the goal posts from "Wouldn't it be great if beer was cheaper?" --> " I really like Hoegaarden, I want to make that" --> " I hope the addition of Malted corn instead of flaked corn doesn't push the EBC outside the BJCP guidelines for an American Cream Ale, might need to compensate with some flaked oats for mouthfeel..."
IT's got its hooks in me, man!

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I think the real reason I sparge is the 'Tradition Fallacy' - It must be important if it's the way it's always been done. I think new brewers like me are sometimes a little too worried about making a 'bad' brew, so we tend to trust doing more than doing less. I've even seen posts and youtube videos (one even came out today from David Heath) that show it doesn't really matter, because it's all personal taste, yet here I am, still sparging (cognitive dissonance?).

The other thing I find, not frustrating but maybe uncomfortable (just for me), is that Home Brewing is essentially controlled chaos. Unless you're a lab, or have a massive set up, it's very difficult to pinpoint what is best practice. For example, if I have 2 brews, one sparge and one no sparge, I'd have to brew the same beer twice, ferment under the same circumstances, and even then how would I know if the one I like better is because of sparging, or is it a slight ph difference, or did it cool at a different rate, or was less oxygen added to one during batch priming etc. . I'm not saying this needs a solution, it's just a combination of me being analytical (wanting to know why) and lazy (not wanting to really work hard to find out).

Don't get me wrong, I'm super enjoying this as a hobby. I'm just starting to move the goal posts from "Wouldn't it be great if beer was cheaper?" --> " I really like Hoegaarden, I want to make that" --> " I hope the addition of Malted corn instead of flaked corn doesn't push the EBC outside the BJCP guidelines for an American Cream Ale, might need to compensate with some flaked oats for mouthfeel..."
IT's got its hooks in me, man!

Well sparging is a relatively new concept in the history of brewing, the method before sparging became practice parti gyle was the way to go, where they would maybe get 3 or 4 runnings from one mash. Shakespear mentioned it, King Henry VI. ' There shall be in England seven halfpenny loaves sold for a penny; the three-hooped pot shall have ten hoops; and
I will make it felony to drink small beer. The small beer was the final runnings.
Parti gyle was carried on by publican brewers in England in the late nineteenth century, one reason was the excise could be manipulated by mixing the runnings.