Kit twang at local HBS in their demo recipe

[stewy]

Exactly as the title suggests, I went to local HBS just to grab some carb drops & sampled their latest recipe from the kegerator which was made from a brand name kit with some DME, specialty grains & hops. I've only ever tasted full extract or AG brews before, both methods have delivered excellent results with great beer. This one had what could only be the infamous 'kit twang' I've read about. It was most unpleasant.

Now, given that it was the HBS you would assume temp controlled fermentation was adhered to, so my question is, do all kits result in some type of twang? I brew only extracts & FWK's and have always had great tasting beer

 

[jkirky]

I have always believed/ understood 'kit twang' to be due to the use of 'Iso-hops' rather than fresh hops.

My understanding is that yeast selection, ferment temps and conditioning can subdue kit twang a little, dependant on technique, however I dont think you can ever quite have it removed completely.

From my experience, a highish suger/dex ratio will bring forward the twang (I used to mask it by using lots of malt).

Others will have more reliable info on this- I havent used kit brews for years and kinda forgotten a fair bit.

 

[pk.sax]

With a HBS, don't assume anything.

He might just have fermented it at ambient. He's probably been pissing in his own bath water for so long he can't tell the difference. Sorry, recent experience with half arsed shop tells me they don't always know what they claim to be experts on.

 

[NewtownClown]

Some pearls of wisdom from LHBS:

"Caster sugar will give you smaller bubbles"

"Never, ever put a borosilicate flask directly on a flame"

"Temperature controlled fermentation is overrated, modern yeast can handle temperatures from 17 - 35c"

 

[Bribie G]

"There are only four yeast strains in the world so don't be fooled by that liquid yeast scam. "

On topic, the kit twang is mostly from the extract. Waste ten bucks (or use it in your cooking), buy a tin of liquid malt extract and try a spoonful. If that tastes anything like malted barley grain you have my permission to strangle a kitten.

edit: of course you can make good beers with extracts, for example partials with real grain, stouts and strongly hopped IPAs where the twang is overlaid by nicer flavours. However in the case of kits, the lighter styles have nothing to hide behind so the twang is very apparent. As most punters buy kits that they think are going to turn out like Tooheys New or Carlton Draught, this is where the term "home brew" gets a bad name.

 

[danestead]

Like bribie said. I did some reading recently and the general consensus was that old extract was the problem. Fresher extracts seemed to be the best way to go according to that thread.

It wouldn't surprise me if isohop is part of it also. Drink a Carlton dry. That has some sort of awful chemical twang which I can only assume is isohop. Does it taste anything like that?

 

[jyo]

I had to grab a couple packets of yeast last summer and my LHBS warned be about the 34/70 lager yeast as it will can climb out of the airlock.

They were fermenting with it in the middle of summer with no temp control.

Yum.

 

[danestead]

I had to grab a couple packets of yeast last summer and my LHBS warned be about the 34/70 lager yeast as it will can climb out of the airlock.

They were fermenting with it in the middle of summer with no temp control.

Yum.

That's pretty piss poor tbh. They are only doing themselves ill service.

If they want to hook new comers on home brew, they should be maybe displaying a couple of different examples of technique. 1 whiz bang all grain better than commercial beer and the cheaper end of the scale of a kit but with temp control and quality yeast. No1 but the poorest 18yr old (that used to be me) wants to drink a non temp controlled kit beer with kit yeast that's rushed out in 4 days.

 

[stewy]

"There are only four yeast strains in the world so don't be fooled by that liquid yeast scam. "

On topic, the kit twang is mostly from the extract. Waste ten bucks (or use it in your cooking), buy a tin of liquid malt extract and try a spoonful. If that tastes anything like malted barley grain you have my permission to strangle a kitten.

edit: of course you can make good beers with extracts, for example partials with real grain, stouts and strongly hopped IPAs where the twang is overlaid by nicer flavours. However in the case of kits, the lighter styles have nothing to hide behind so the twang is very apparent. As most punters buy kits that they think are going to turn out like Tooheys New or Carlton Draught, this is where the term "home brew" gets a bad name.

I've only ever used DME & always got great results without any hint of twang. Must be the pre-hopped goo that's the culprit or old liquid malt?

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I was that poor 18 year old too.

 

[DU99]

you walk into the store and you see the dry yeast and the hops sitting on shelf.without any refridgeration..theres a good recommendation

 

[jkirky]

I've only ever used DME & always got great results without any hint of twang. Must be the pre-hopped goo that's the culprit or old liquid malt?

Yeah, this is similar to my observations...

Started with 'kit and kilo'- had varying degrees of kit twang.. some brews hardly drinkable, others just a tad noticable...

Moved to full extract with self hopping- never experienced any suggestion, or any single hint of 'kit twang'.

I moved to AG for a while, obviously no twang here, but now I am generally doing extract brews again for time saving, and again, no hint of kit twang...

Hence, if the twang is from the extract, it could only be from age... Perhaps the prehopped kits are stored poorly and for longer? I know my unhopped extract is generally very fresh- I buy direct from ESB brewing (who I imagine keep the malt in suitable conditions and not for too long...)

 

[Feldon]

There's a thread currently on the topic of 'twang' focusing on the role various sugars might play.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/82635-glucose-fructose-and-sucrose-how-different-sugars-ferment/

MHB has some original and interesting ideas on it.

 

[madpierre06]

Interesting experience with the twang in recent times. When I first got back into brewing I had two btches bottled 9/5 and 5/7, and a batch brewed for the June bottle swap which while kit 'n' extraxt based was made with better quality kit ingredients (Thomas Cooper range as opposed to basic Coopers range) . The first was straight kit brew, and the second a kits 'n' pre cracked LHBS addition grain bag with a LHBS hop bag (yeah, I know). The kit brew I first tried end of May and found it pretty disgusting with twang all over the place. The kit 'n' bit brew I tried about 3 weeks after bottling and whilst there was a fair amount of twang it was more palatable I'm guessing due to the additions (relatively poor they may be). The one thing I did notice which hasn't changed is SFA head retention (I had previously put this down to my beer glass 'dying' but have read that it may be due to quality of ingredients which contributes more to this characteristic). The swap brew actually came up ok with the twang less obvious than the other two brews when tried at a simliar time frame post-bottling.

Have had both of these beers in the last few days and whilst the head retention issue has not changed, both beers are definitely more drinkable as time has elapsed. The twang has faded significantly and means I don't have to toss the first batch especially, which was looking to be an option. So in light of other posts in this thread...I put it down to quality (or lack) of kit ingredients and time frame. The swap brew received one review which noted a quite drinkable beer in spite of the twang, something which I noted also and it did fade at a quicker rate over time than the two other brews. Again though....poor head retention.

I recall an experience way way back in the day when I used to brew (kit, and kit only). I had done a Coopers brew and a Jads one. The Jads one was a $4.99 kit from Franklins, and tasted accordingly when tasted n the usual home brew time frame. I found a dozen stashed bottles of the Jads in the laundry about 9 months after bottling and being somewhat broke at the time stooped to drinking it. Surprisingly, it was actually bloody very drinkable. The Coopers, of which I also had a dozen unwittingly stashed, was even better.

I compare these to my first AG brew put down a few weeks ago and currently lagering.....when tasted whilst taking gravity readings, no twang whatsoever. I figure if I am going to use any extraxt in brews, it will be only using extraxt bought through online outlets such as Craftbrewer or Barleyman or the like who seem to stock extracts which I woulkd assume to be of greater quality than the chain branded extracts sold in the LHBS. I would be happy to be corrected if necessary on this one.

 

[Eagleburger]

Two weeks ago my curiosity got the better of me and I bought and put down a coles brand draught kit. I added 350g LDME and 750 dex and 25g of Amarillo pellets . There was only 5g of yeast supplied so I topped it up with a sprinkle of S-04 and some other packet that was given to me by a former brewer who quit about 5 years ago.

Had a taste today of the dregs after I kegged it and it had no twang at all. Just smooth malt with passionfruit.

I have done about five kits now and none have had a twang, all are temp controlled.

 

[pist]

Heres my 2c on this.
I am an all grain brewer (BIAB), and I have just literally tried the first kit I have made since taking up all grain.
I had kegs to fill, and not enough time to mash some grain, and I had a kit I had bought for the yeast in an emergency, so put this down:

Coopers PA can
1KG LDME
About 40g of cascade steeped
handful of oak chips.
250g medium crystal steeped

I gave away doing kits as I was getting this "twang" everyone complains about. It's that distinct off flavour that is hard to describe but geez is it horrible! I never had a temperature controlled fridge when I was doing kits, and I really do think this is where the "twang" comes from (beer brewed at less than ideal temperatures). The beer I'm drinking now isn't quite up to the quality of what I would make myself if doing an AG batch, however it isn't offensive and actually quite drinkable. No "twang" is present! So id have to lean towards practicalfools suggestion that the LHBS doesn't know what he is doing and fermented it well above 18oC.

 

[pk.sax]

Well, I've tasted it in every single one that's been done that way - save saisons.
Also got pleasantly surprised by some kit beers some bring into club meetings/pissups and they tell you it's from a kit, can tell that but none of that ester soup twang from warm ferments - even commercial ubrewit ones.

 

[doctr-dan]

Personally the last few brews I've done have been 100% better just by temp control and pitching the yeast at the right temperature

 

[TheWiggman]

I should note that for the Coopers Pale Ale it is taken directly from the wort for the commercial pale ale. Post boil/chilling, it is piped off to the fermenters and from that same pipe it splits to the centrifuge dehydraters (I don't understand how centrifuges are used but that may have been lost in translation). So for some of the Coopers range at least, it is made from exactly the same source product as the commercially sold beers.
I've taken this 'on good authority' and apparently there is something in this dehydration process that affects the flavour. That and all the home brew variability like temp, water, yeast etc.

 

[indica86]

I should note that for the Coopers Pale Ale it is taken directly from the wort for the commercial pale ale.

Why then is the Pale tin less bitter then the bottled drink?