Kit Beer Bos At The Nationals

[user 384]

Hypothetical questions

1) Imagine someone buys a fresh wort kit from Grumpys. They decide not to dilute it at all, which means it's 17 litres at 1.060 and 53 IBU, so just fits within the style guidelines for an APA. So they just sprinkle their little sachet of yeast on top of the wort, close the fermenter and wait 7 days. They then bottled the brew. After it had carbonated and conditioned, they decided to send it to a comp. Should they be allowed to enter? Have they actually home brewed the beer? Is it fair to let them into the competition?

2) Imagine I produce a wort for a friend. All they have to do is sprinkle the yeast on top, close the fermenter and wait 7 days. They bottle it and condition it, then send some to a competition. Should they be allowed to enter? Have they actually home brewed the beer? Is it fair to let them into the competition? Is there any difference between this and the guy who bought a fresh wort kit?

3) Somebody buys a 3kg kit. They open the can, pour the malt into a fermenter, dilute with water, sprinkle some yeast on top, wait 7 days etc. Should they be allowed to enter? Have they actually home brewed the beer? Is it fair to let them into the competition? Is there any difference between this and the guy who bought a fresh wort kit?

4) Sombody goes to a brew on premisses, sprinkles the yeast on top of the prepared wort, closes the fermenter, leaves, comes back 7 days later and bottles. Then sends some to a comp. Should they be allowed to enter? Have they actually home brewed the beer? Is it fair to let them into the competition? What is the difference between this and the other guys?

You can go on and on with examples such as these progressing including doing the same for extract and Ag brewing. The exercise is to get people to critically review what actually defines the process of home brewing and hence the legitimacy of entering a HB comp. For me all of the above examples are not home brewing. I also think that a 3 can screamer, which the BoS has been reported to be. Is not HBing.

Comps need to clarify this point, there needs to be a well defined minimum criteria, otherwise they are open to such criticism.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Steve]

mate you obviously have a problem with the way comps are run. Why dont you start your own thread and address your problems to the relevant people associated with organising comps. This thread was a congratulatory post from one home brewer to another. You purposely went fishing for bites by starting the kit vs ag argument.....get over it, build a bridge or start yourself a new thread.
Steve

 

[warrenlw63]

Hypothetical questions

So they just sprinkle their little sachet of yeast on top of the wort
All they have to do is sprinkle the yeast on top,
sprinkle some yeast on top
sprinkles the yeast on top of the prepared wort

Real brewers hydrate or make starters.

Warren -

 

[PostModern]

mate you obviously have a problem with the way comps are run. Why dont you start your own thread and address your problems to the relevant people associated with organising comps. This thread was a congratulatory post from one home brewer to another. You purposely went fishing for bites by starting the kit vs ag argument.....get over it, build a bridge or start yourself a new thread.
Steve

Steve,

With all due respect, the title of the thread is "Kit Beer Bos At The Nationals". This is the topic. What was posted in the first post, was "Dan to my surprise told me that his beer (RIS) that won BEER OF SHOW at the nationals was made from 3 kits". The debate about kits entering comps is not a divergence from the topic or the content of the first post.

Yes, Dan made a show winning beer with kits. Well done to him, and well done to the kit makers. Backslapping has been done, kudos awarded, etc. Lets get on with the discussion of the topic: A kit beer won BoS.

Rob.

 

[Stuster]

Can you offer a minimum criteria that could be used by competitions, MAH?

 

[Steve]

no worries Pomo....will pull me ead in.

 

[AUHEAMIC]

Comps need to clarify this point, there needs to be a well defined minimum criteria, otherwise they are open to such criticism.

Cheers
MAH

If your serious MAH I for one agree with you totally.

If not. Happy fishing

 

[PostModern]

I agree. I don't think kit beers, or fresh worts made in professional breweries then fermented at home should be put up against home mashed, or even home boiled extract beers (should extract and "all grain" beers be in separate streams as well?). What percentage of sugar or extract should be allowed to be in the recipe of an "all grain" beer?

Excluding kit brewers from comps would not be good for the craft as kit brewers are the grass roots of what we do. Even Dan, BoS winner is hanging up his tin opener and going into mash beer making. This is why I think there should be two streams in the comps. We all "make beer" at home, but the methods and ingredients are so far apart, that we can't pretend to be doing the same thing.

 

[Weizguy]

Can you offer a minimum criteria that could be used by competitions, MAH?

...and can we make it enforcable?

Should we do a Lie Detector test with the entry form, and are they reliable, too? (I think not).

We may just have to be satisfied with the entrant's honesty as to their opinion as to whether they "made" their beer.

Much (really much) Kudos to Dan re the BoS (as I prob didn't say so b4) :beer:

... and if it was an inferior beer, wouldn't it have been weeded out at State qualifying level?

Maybe we're all jealous that it wasn't us that entered that beer? N'est pas?
Coz if it was 3 kits, we all could have made it? ...or could we?

Guess what I'm making for the next State comp? :lol:

Seth out

 

[user 384]

If your serious MAH I for one agree with you totally.

If not. Happy fishing

No longer fishing. The AG vs Kits was a piss-take on Stagger's original statement that he "was a little taken back but now know that a good kit beer can easily perform better than a crafted all grain beer". But the thread has legitimately evolved into a discussion on the merits of different approaches to brewing and which should be allowed to enter a HB competition.

Can you offer a minimum criteria that could be used by competitions, MAH?

My own opinion is that writing an inclusive definition of what are acceptable methods of HBing for entering a comp is difficult, so it's better to start with an exclusionary definition of what is not acceptable, and hence anything else is acceptable. I'm happy to suggest some starting points and then for the discussion to build on the ideas.

To kick it off I would exclude any BoP beer, any beer that uses pre-hopped concentrate or freash wort kit.

Input and discussion from others most welcome.

Cheers
MAH

 

[PostModern]

... and if it was an inferior beer, wouldn't it have been weeded out at State qualifying level?

I don't think that anyone is questioning if the beer was good enough to win, but none of the pro-kits-in-comp guys are saying that Fresh Worts can and should be encouraged to enter brewing comps.

 

[bigfridge]

Comps need to clarify this point, there needs to be a well defined minimum criteria, otherwise they are open to such criticism.

Cheers
MAH

MAH,

I fully agree. This is why NSW and the AABA published the rule that anyone can enter provided they added the yeast - they have brewed (ie fermented) it.

It may not be ideal but there is no other real alternative as there is plenty of things that the brewer can do wrong in each of your examples plus you can't police it anyway.

David

 

[user 384]

I fully agree. This is why NSW and the AABA published the rule that anyone can enter provided they added the yeast - they have brewed (ie fermented) it.

It may not be ideal but there is no other real alternative as there is plenty of things that the brewer can do wrong in each of your examples plus you can't police it anyway.

David

Hi David

I understand that a lot of the reluctance is that it's impossible to police such a rule, however I still think there is a need for a criteria. It doesn't make sense to try and stop cheating by saying we can't stop you so you're free to enter.

Just my opinion, but I think the definition that they added the yeast is too open. This would allow a BoP beer being entered. For such a beer they don't even have to worry about sanitation or temp control as this is done by the staff at the BoP site.

There has to be more to brewing than just adding yeast, or even sanitation and temp control.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Stuster]

To kick it off I would exclude any BoP beer, any beer that uses pre-hopped concentrate or freash wort kit.

Damn. I've started using cheap lager kits from the supermarket to grow my starters. No more comps for me.

 

[Gulpa]

To kick it off I would exclude any BoP beer, any beer that uses pre-hopped concentrate or freash wort kit.

All you are doing is setting up comps to be elitist. Im sure most comp organisers dont want that, they want as many entries as possible.

I think it is wrong to start with a list of requirements. The competition has to define what it's purpose is and base any criteria on that.

If you want a requirement, I think the obvious is "Did you create the recipe?", whether it is a kit or whatever. But then again, I dont see a problem with a comp that defines a recipe and everyone brews the same one. It just comes back to the comps purpose.

Cheers,
Andrew.

 

[bigfridge]

Just my opinion, but I think the definition that they added the yeast is too open. This would allow a BoP beer being entered. For such a beer they don't even have to worry about sanitation or temp control as this is done by the staff at the BoP site.

True, so very true.

But do you really think that a BOP recipe is going to take out many prizes ? In my experience they are all about convenience and quick turnaround, whereas prize winners are all about selection of methods and materials.

Dave

 

[user 384]

The competition has to define what it's purpose is and base any criteria on that............It just comes back to the comps purpose.

If the purpose is to judge the best home brewed, then it has to also define what IS a home brewed beer, hence the need for saying what is and what is not a home brewed beer.

All you are doing is setting up comps to be elitist.

I'm sure some would see excluding kits etc as being elitist, but why would a serious comp go to the effort of clealry defining such things as styles, against which a home brewed beer is judged, but then have a loose open-ended definition of what a home brewed beer is?

The Mash Paddle is an extreme example of a comp that has tackled the problem of meaningfully defining what is an acceptable method of brewing. It gives a fairly level playing field, requiring all brewers to display a similar range of skills. Anyone who wins this comp can walk away with pride and the knowledge that their beer beat not only all other beers in the comp, but it was a reflection on their level and range of skills.

Using a sporting analogy again, is it fair to allow one person to use an air pitsol to shoot at a target 10 metres away and then allow another to use a shotgun. You might be measuring the number of times each person hits a bulls-eye, but clearly the person with the shotgun isn't relying upon the same level of shooting skill as the air pistol shooter.

Cheers
MAH

 

[user 384]

do you really think that a BOP recipe is going to take out many prizes ? In my experience they are all about convenience and quick turnaround, whereas prize winners are all about selection of methods and materials.

Hi David

A few days ago I could have asked "Do you really think that a 3 tin kit beer is going to win BoS at the Nationals?"

Cheers
MAH

 

[AUHEAMIC]

Its good to see this discussion getting back to original topic.

I have only been part of the brewing community for a little over a year but the way I understand it k&k beers generally dont have a hope in hell of winning brewing comps. I would also think this would put a lot of people making beer from kits off entering comps.

If there was a k&k class in a comp it might actually attract more grass roots beer makers.

 

[roach]

just to add fuel to the fire. Could you get some wort from a local microbrewery and add your own yeast and enter a comp?