Kit Beer Bos At The Nationals

[Steve]

i think this and other recent threads knocking comps, judges, how people brew is a very, very sad advert for people considering entering a competition.....

 

[wee stu]

I'm not a real brewer either h34r:

I don't have a march pump

awrabest,

stu the challenged

 

[user 384]

What PoMo said. Is kit beer better than AG or vice versa is not the issue for me. For me the issue is whether or not it's fair to judge the two side by side.

I guess you'd agree that mashing is just a continuation of the malting process. As you say, brewing is a complete process. Personally, I refuse to compete against those who don't malt their own. :lol:

If trying to discredit what I've said, then this is a crap argument, as it only reinforces my point. If you want to test an indivisuals malting and brewing skills, then certainly require entrants to do both. However if you just want to test brewing skills, then an entrant should be required to brew and not just rehydrate tinned gloop.

Cheers
MAH

 

[PostModern]

Note: A beer entered from a fresh wort kit would be a totally differing thing altogether and pushes the boundaries of fairness in all reality.

Why so? Coopers kits are, essentially, just more concentrated versions of the same thing aren't they? Concentrated wort from a brewer's kettle? Sure, they're specced differently with regard to colour and IBUs because it is expected that they'll have more fermentables added, but essentially...

Whatever, I don't enter the comps anyway, so my care factor is small, but it seems to be there is a fundamental difference between kits and brewed beer and judging them against each other is unfair, im(extremely)ho. I have nothing more to say on the matter.

 

[warrenlw63]

I don't enter the comps anyway, so my care factor is small,

So it was all for arguments sake? Bit like slagging a system of government and not voting.

Warren -

 

[Stuster]

I was just trying to lighten the thread up a bit (god knows it needs it). Judging the kit section at a comp certainly reinforced for me that the brewer has an important role to play in producing a good beer. To quote you

I have no doubt that beer made with fresh grain will taste better than beer made with mlat that has been dried or concentrated (all other things being equall).

If you believe yourself, then you are saying that the kit brewer is a better fermentation assistant than the AG brewer if they can produce a better beer. Are you saying that brewing is simply the mashing and boiling stage and that skill at the fermentation stage is irrelevant? :unsure: Perhaps we could have a wort tasting competition.

I'm an AG brewer only now but started with kits. Are there any here who didn't? I found it enjoyable, and it got me hooked. Anyway, I think johnno is spot on. Let's talk about something constructive, please.

 

[PostModern]

So it was all for arguments sake? Bit like slagging a system of government and not voting.

Warren -

Perhaps the system is part of the reason I choose not to participate? Perhaps I will enter once I nail a style in my lovely new full wort capable kettle? Who's to tell?

 

[DJR]

Get a plan for a Bridge. Build. Go Over.

 

[hooky]

or a pre-assembled bridge for us "second class citizens"

 

[user 384]

OK inspired by PoMo's sporting analogy, I've come up with the answer using diving as the basis for judging.

Each beer gets a raw score. It's judged purely on how it tastes. The score is then multiplied by a level of difficulty factor (LDF). Kit LDF = 1.00, Kits & Bits LDF = 1.1........AG LDF = 1.5. The system aknowledges the quality of the final product but also gives due credit for the amount of individual input making it more fair.

Problem solved!

Cheers
MAH

 

[warrenlw63]

Mmmmm... Forward, reverse pike beer. :lol:

Warren -

 

[DJR]

Why would that solve anything?

Judging is on the result, not the inputs. Who cares if somebody became a "fermentation assistant" and beat some AG beer. Good on em for having the balls to. So what if that makes them a "lesser brewer", it's just that they might be at a different stage of the brewing learning process.

Using your analogy, somebody who grew and malted their own grain, imported or cultured up some super-rare yeast, offered sacrifices to the brewing gods, individually cracked every grain by hand, home-grew the hops and got full HPLC assays done, fermented every step with 0.1C accuracy fermentation control, etc etc. should have a huge modifier added because of the difficulty?

Not likely. Knowing some individuals, they would enter a kit beer and put "AG" on the form to get the extra points, and everyone else would cry foul.

Maybe you should make wine, it's a good way to use up sour grapes.

 

[PostModern]

Get a plan for a Bridge. Build. Go Over.

This is part of the User Requirements phase.

OK inspired by PoMo's sporting analogy, I've come up with the answer using diving as the basis for judging.

Each beer gets a raw score. It's judged purely on how it tastes. The score is then multiplied by a level of difficulty factor (LDF). Kit LDF = 1.00, Kits & Bits LDF = 1.1........AG LDF = 1.5. The system aknowledges the quality of the final product but also gives due credit for the amount of individual input making it more fair.

Problem solved!

Cheers
MAH

But who is going to define the level of difficulty for: unmalted adjuct conversion, culturing Brett. for lambic fermentation, manual or electric can opener, etc?

 

[warrenlw63]

But who is going to define the level of difficulty for: unmalted adjuct conversion, culturing Brett. for lambic fermentation, manual or electric can opener, etc?

:lol: Gawd help us if they ever decide to put a ringpull on a kit. That could well blow the countback on two kits that tie for 1st.

Warren -

 

[shotduck]

or a pre-assembled bridge for us "second class citizens"

K&K Bridge Builder ? ?

 

[user 384]

But who is going to define the level of difficulty for: unmalted adjuct conversion, culturing Brett. for lambic fermentation, manual or electric can opener, etc?

BJCP :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[shotduck]

But who is going to define the level of difficulty for: unmalted adjuct conversion, culturing Brett. for lambic fermentation, manual or electric can opener, etc?

BJCP :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wow... once you open MAH's can, it just keeps on coming

 

[PostModern]

I had a bit of a think over a hot bowl of Satay seafood noodle soup...

How about there be two streams at a HB comp: 1. Mashing and 2. Kit. Have all the same categories etc in those two streams. Then at the end of the first round, a best of stream prize for each of the mashers and the kitters. Then the best of show is a head-to-head between the best kit and the masher.

This would open up a the chance for the kit manufacturers to have their own prizes and points system over the year ala Forumula One.

(In Murray Walker's voice) "In the Kit Constructors Championship, Coopers leads Black Rock by 15 points. The results of the Bathurst Show competition will be very interesting for Black Rock, given the shelfspace they have in Bathurst brew shops and I'm sure Muntons will be seeking to make up some valuable ground. In the Maltsters Competition, it's neck and neck between Joe White's and Barret Burston. Powel's leads in the independant stakes."

C'Mon, it'd be great for the punters.

 

[///]

A man much better than I once said;

" In every K+K brewer there is an AG Brewer just screaming to get out"

Listen to the voices, whether they are little or large in your head it does not matter... c'mon you all know what I am talking about... its true...

Scotty

 

[Weizguy]

A man much better than I once said;

" In every K+K brewer there is an AG Brewer just screaming to get out"

Listen to the voices, whether they are little or large in your head it does not matter... c'mon you all know what I am talking about... its true...

Scotty

but, Scotty...my doctor said that I shouldn't listen to the voices.

There they go again..."acidify, acidify, acidify".

Now you've done it. I'll need to make a sour Summer ale again.

Grrrr.
Seth