Kit Beer Bos At The Nationals

[The King of Spain]

I did my first extract brew recently and it tasted great at bottling. Talking to Ross (from Craftbrewer) Im convinced that I can do an AG using the Brew In A Bag method for about the same hassle so thats where I am at. With my first attempt I think I will do two brews at once, an AG and a good kit (say Thomas Cooper + Malt Tin + good yeast). I will do both in the fridge with temp control. My gut instinct is that fresh ingredients will taste better but I would like to prove this for myself. Seems this stuff cant be discussed rationally, sort of religious thing?? Either way I will find out for myself and post the results.

 

[Whistlingjack]

I have to say that I'm a yeast farmer.

The wort I supply for its nourishment comes from the educated process of malt selection and mashing technique.

The by-product is made more palatable by the addition of hops and specific fermentation procedure.

In the end, I have some yeast ready for the next brew, and some by-product to enjoy while I'm waiting.

 

[Adamt]

I still think the whole kit vs. AG banter can be analogised in a very simple manner.

What makes a better soup, heated tinned soup, or soup with fresh ingredients and stock? Debatable.

Who is the better soup-maker, he/she who cracks a tin, or he/she who prepares fresh ingredients? The tinned soup-maker isnt actually making the soup, so they shouldn't qualify.

This whole debate is about an extract beer (tinned soup) being the best beer (soup). Possible? Of course, some beers can be made very successfully with extracts, just like many tinned/powdered soups taste fine.

If an extract brewer was awarded best overall brewer (over all grain brewers), a debate of these proportions would be appropriate.

-Adam

 

[organo]

Guys..

dispute what you like, but no AGer would bother spending the money or time to find out what 3 cans work well together...

good luck to the guy who brewed a good one with 3 cans, ('cos it's a pretty unusual thing) but that's 30 bucks minimum, (and how many experiments along the way.. at 30 bucks a go !!) .. you are better off buying whatever you reckon is the real thing... the best ready made beers on earth can be had for not much more money, and a lot less effort..

one of the things that attracted me to homebrew is the economic factor.. and I choose to build that into the equation.. sure. it costs some money and time to AG.. but very rarely will an AGer spend 30 big ones on a brew...

Cheers, Organo

 

[Barry]

Whatever I said last time.

 

[Trent]

Hate to enter the debate, but I rarely spend LESS than 30 bucks on a brew. Lets say a pale ale, 5.5kg maris otter at $3.20 a kg (by the bag), thats $17.50, half a kilo of crystal, thats another $2. Say 40g of northern brewer to bitter, theres $2.50, 30g cascade each at 20 mins and 10 mins, thats another $4, 30g dry hop, $2. So far thats $28. Then, factor in the gas, about $7, and a 3L starter all up for my yeast ($1/L out of DME) thats $3. All told, I spent the better part of $40 on a average gravity brew. An 1110 Russian Imperial Stout costs me closer to $90, 15kg grain, 250-300g hops, etc. Quite sure I could drop that cost down if I really wanted to, but I prefer to try and put in the best ingredients I can and I am quite happy spending $1.50-$3 on a longneck of beer. I do wonder, however if the guy that won DID experiment alot to see which 3 cans go together, or if he bought 3 cans of the same stout or something. Regardless, congrats on your acheivement Dan, you should be very proud of yourself. I do think that the nationals need a separate BOS round, and I also agree with some of the comments that they could have just been high score giving judges, but to get the highest scoring beer in the comp is no mean feat, and it must be a really good beer.
All the best

 

[mongo]

I don't want to get involved other than to say that I have noticed that all-grain brewers tend to be more intelligent and good looking than kit brewers. It's only personal observation, and there are exceptions to the rule of course, so please don't take any of what I say personally.

 

[Stuster]

dispute what you like, but no AGer would bother spending the money or time to find out what 3 cans work well together...

I think the winner was an AG brewer (and kit brewer obviously). :unsure:

Trent, you need to get in some of these bulk buys. :super: And $7 on gas. But I totally agree with you on putting in the best ingredients. Spending that much time on it, saving a few dollars on raw materials is not really worth it IMO.

Mongo, you are certainly right in my case.

 

[mongo]

Dan is certainly more physically attractive (in a platonic sense, of course) since going to AG. Well done Dan! Oh, and well done on the BoS as well.

 

[warrenlw63]

Not nearly. There is a divergence here. The mash brewer (and the unhopped extract brewer, more or less) makes his own work from base materials. The kit brewer dilutes a concentrated wort made by someone else. Of course we all have outside inputs into the finished product, and ingredient selection is no doubt of importance... but why will no-one take on my earlier question? St Peters Brewery or the guy that added water and pitched yeast?

So Postmodern am I to take it in regards to your passion for this subject that you've never extract brewed? If so you never entered your beers in any comps when you did do extract?

Would you have gladly handed your trophy back should you have aquired best of show? :unsure:

We all make beer. We just do it differently.

Warren -

 

[Guest Lurker]

Whatever I said last time.

Teehee. Ditto.

 

[DJR]

Hate to enter the debate, but I rarely spend LESS than 30 bucks on a brew.

Trent, you really need to get in on some bulk deals or something, paying $13 for 100g of hops is insane! The last bulk buy we did, direct from the US cost us about 1/3 or 1/4 of that!

 

[Wreck]

I still think the whole kit vs. AG banter can be analogised in a very simple manner.

What makes a better soup, heated tinned soup, or soup with fresh ingredients and stock? Debatable.

Who is the better soup-maker, he/she who cracks a tin, or he/she who prepares fresh ingredients? The tinned soup-maker isnt actually making the soup, so they shouldn't qualify.

This whole debate is about an extract beer (tinned soup) being the best beer (soup). Possible? Of course, some beers can be made very successfully with extracts, just like many tinned/powdered soups taste fine.

If an extract brewer was awarded best overall brewer (over all grain brewers), a debate of these proportions would be appropriate.

-Adam

I think Adam has summed it up pretty well. We've all had frozen meals from the supermarket, and we've all had home cooked meals.

For arguments sake, lets say they both taste exactly the same. Which one are you more satisfied with after cooking it?

I switched to AG for two reasons:

1) The variability and control that you get by creating your own wort that you cannot get with a kit.
2) I found making K+K boring after a while.

Now, some of my AGs have been disasters (the only 2 beers I ever threw out were AGs), but I've always enjoyed the process of making my AG beers much more.

Whether or not my beers are better or worse than an equivalent K+K doesn't matter. Similarly, I've never tried the fresh wort kits, but I bet they make a great beer. The process in making the beer makes the final product more enjoyable.

Wreck.

 

[user 384]

Regardless, congrats on your acheivement Dan, you should be very proud of yourself.

Why? Because he can use a can opener? Because he can add water to malt extract? Lets not beat around the bush, this sort of thing is not brewing and should not be considered for competition.

OK some people might enjoy making kit beers, and they might even consider it a hobby, but that is completely different to then considering for the purpose of a brewing competition that the person actually made the beer. Who cares if they were able to ferment it properly, this was a brewing competition, not a sanitation and temperature management competition.

I'll give some slack to extract brewers who use a base malt extract and make ALL hop and specialty malt additions according to their recipe.

Brewing beer is a complete process and it's not a level playing field when you judge someone's complete efforts against someone else who has come in at the end and simply added water.

I don't care if you can make a better beer than my AG efforts by using a kit. If we're in competition to each other, then either we both use kits or we both AG.

If someone entered an St Peters Fresh Wort into a comp and won, would he be the champion brewer or would Matt Donelan?

And to answer your reasonable question, Matt Donelan!.

For the record, this time I'm not trolling, kit brewers are the drug cheats of homebrew competitions. Give them their own section of a comp, but don't insult the efforts of real brewers by comparing the two, even if the kit tastes better.

Seriously
MAH

 

[Stuster]

I'm glad you have decided to be open about your opinion today, MAH.

I guess you'd agree that mashing is just a continuation of the malting process. As you say, brewing is a complete process. Personally, I refuse to compete against those who don't malt their own. :lol:

 

[johnno]

Reads like a lot of sour grapes going around in this thread.

 

[PostModern]

So Postmodern am I to take it in regards to your passion for this subject that you've never extract brewed? If so you never entered your beers in any comps when you did do extract?

Would you have gladly handed your trophy back should you have aquired best of show? :unsure:

We all make beer. We just do it differently.

Warren -

I've only started brewing AG this year. For the last 5 or so years I've been brewing partial mash beers with high gravity boils, my own recipes, malt extract in boil or the fermenter. I put on the odd kit brew to keep supply up. I have never entered any beer in any comp. I brew for myself and my friends' pleasure. I don't have a competitive bone in my body and get enough detailed feedback from other brewers I know to not particularly want brew judges' feedback.

If I had won best of show with one of my partial mash beers, I would have proudly kept it. If I had won with a kit, something must have gone drastically wrong because I would not have entered a kit into a competition.

 

[warrenlw63]

I reckon this thread will go around in circles. The original post being Stagger giving kudos to a fellow brewer getting a BOS at the nationals. Stagger was duly taken aback when the brewer in question claimed his winning entry was formulated from 3 stout kits. :blink:

For the sake of everybody be they kit, extract, partial or AG brewers I think the brewer in question (Dan) would do very well to publish his recipe on this thread. Maybe then we can all get some sleep. :lol:

Other than that I just get sick of the AG is better than kit, extract argument. I've been AG brewing for nearly 10 years now and still think my beers are variable (probably at their worst average). OTOH I've tasted plenty of kit, extract, partial beers that rival, if not plain romp on a poorly made AG beer.

The part that I get "SICK" of hearing is the way AG brewing is made out to be esoteric rocket science and if you do it you must instantly be better than your extract or kit bretheren.

Probably said it at least 50 times before. A trained oyster with learning difficulties could make AG beer. Just depends on where you take it from there and how badly you want to improve it..

Going back into my shell to guard my pearl. h34r:

Warren -

 

[PostModern]

Other than that I just get sick of the AG is better than kit, extract argument. I've been AG brewing for nearly 10 years now and still think my beers are variable (probably at their worst average). OTOH I've tasted plenty of kit, extract, partial beers that rival, if not plain romp on a poorly made AG beer.

The part that I get "SICK" of hearing is the way AG brewing is made out to be esoteric rocket science and if you do it you must instantly be better than your extract or kit bretheren.

Not at all. You have it wrong. The comps are about judging brewers' skills. AG brewers do not think they are better people than kit "brewers", nor even that they make better beer.

I'll make an analogy and compare it to athletics (sure, why not?). Stick with me here, I'm a frustrated novelist.

The 100 metre sprint is an event whereby athletes (AG brewers) compete to see who can cover the distance (making beer) quickest by their own power (mashing, boiling, fermenting, brewing skills). Rollerskates (beer kits) are a means of using people's power (fermenting skills) to cover a given distance (make beer) more quickly. Why can't rollerskaters (kit brewers) enter the 100 metre sprint at the Olympic Games (National Home Brew Comp)? They're using their skill (with a can opener) to achieve the same goal (making beer) as their sprinting (mashing) bretheren, and some of it can do it quicker than "pure esoteric" sprinters. Why should they be excluded because their footwear (ingredients) is a little different? Put the skaters (kit brewers) on one track (category) and the sprinters (mashing brewers) on another.

 

[warrenlw63]

Not at all. You have it wrong. The comps are about judging brewers' skills.

Can't drink the brewers skills PoMo. Judges are judges and they judged the beer they deemed to be the best and I think that people should just cop it sweet. It still puts them in a position where they should mark a beer down purely because it come from a can? I don't think so.

The whole system is flawed I don't disagree there. OTOH you can't discriminate purely on the basis of the beer's origin. Note: A beer entered from a fresh wort kit would be a totally differing thing altogether and pushes the boundaries of fairness in all reality.

Warren -