Kit Beer Bos At The Nationals

[Hillbilly]

MAH, just wondering if you would put so much effort in trying to upset people if had to do it in your OWN time. Beware big brother is watching you.
Man up or get a real job you wally!

 

[Darren]

Dan,
Well done on the BOS. Was the beer really only 3 cans of gloop? No specialty malts? No extra hops? What yeast did you use? Was it kit supplied yeast of what?

cheers

Darren

 

[tangent]

Comps are more for getting feedback from peers on how you are travelling.

I still can't understand why you don't get a heap of brewers together and let them give you feedback. Why wait for a comp? It's the same people anyway.
Unless it's the bling and bragging rights and not just feedback. h34r:

 

[user 384]

MAH, just wondering if you would put so much effort in trying to upset people if had to do it in your OWN time. Beware big brother is watching you.
Man up or get a real job you wally!

Nice one Hill Billy, good to see your contribution to this discussion is just personal abuse. Not even sure what "Man up" means, but it sure makes you sound internet-tough. If you want to slag me off on a personal level, then I suggest you PM me and leave the open forum to beer related discussions.

Cheers
MAH

 

[McBeer]

Hay Hargi no more hair jokes you cheeky bugger

...Stagger....i mean no offence....i got the hair style....i just need the brewing talent....

....take this photo as evidence.....

....one National Champion.....one lucky beginner........and some jerk with too much hair.....

.... :lol: ....

.....P.S....well done to Dan...kickin' arse.....bring some to the December Meeting....

Hey, us top blokes with hair can take offence too............Certainly the guy in the middle doesn't look like he's packed as many scrums
Plus, I think he looks like a bit of a leader B) ........and you need something to swirl around when you are posing for the slow motion photo's during the CB Xmas calender ,and I'm not talking about your naval

 

[johnno]

Comps are more for getting feedback from peers on how you are travelling.

I still can't understand why you don't get a heap of brewers together and let them give you feedback. Why wait for a comp? It's the same people anyway.
Unless it's the bling and bragging rights and not just feedback. h34r:

Some people, like me for example have minimal or no contact with other brewers so that is the way of getting some feedback.

Oh, and Congratulations to Dan for the win.

cheers
johnno

 

[Wreck]

As better kits come on to the market, the kit brewers get better beer...

Well there's a good argument. I'll just wait for Coopers to come out with a better product, not change my processes at all, but start winning comps!

Finally, as a rebuttal to an earlier point, I reject the argument that kit brewing is not home brewing. I think this argument totally underestimates the importance that sanitation, healthy yeast and fermentation management plays in creating beer.

An AGer has to do all that plus create the wort. These are obviously different skills. That's not saying there isn't any skill in K+K, but it there is an additional skill required in creating the beer.

Are we awarding the prize to the beer or the brewer? If I can place in a state comp, and qualify for Nationals in that section, but send in a different beer, then it's really the brewer being recognised. Dan's beer may well have been the best beer there, but the skills required to create the beer are different.

Different sections for AG and K+K!

 

[Stuster]

Comps are more for getting feedback from peers on how you are travelling.

I still can't understand why you don't get a heap of brewers together and let them give you feedback. Why wait for a comp? It's the same people anyway.
Unless it's the bling and bragging rights and not just feedback. h34r:

I think the difficulty with getting feedback is shown by the thread we had a while ago about how to critique a mate's beer. You want to be positive about the beer and not embarrass the brewer (or give them too much of a big head for that matter).

It's a great idea for a brewclub meeting. You could set it up as a blind tasting. But even then, the chances of us all sitting there quite as intensely as when judging seem remote. On the other hand, the benefit of this is that the brewer can say (perhaps afterwards) what they think might have caused the good/bad whatever in the beer and we can all learn more from that than is the case with a comp.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with bling and bragging rights, is there? :lol:

 

[PostModern]

MAH, just wondering if you would put so much effort in trying to upset people if had to do it in your OWN time. Beware big brother is watching you.
Man up or get a real job you wally!

Whoa there, Bill.

This thread is debating a valid topic. Personal attacks, wastes of space and snipes will be deleted from the thread and the posters warn level increased.

Can we not keep this discussion about the point under scrutiny here? I realise it is an area that always raises the adrenaline of some people, but is there any reason a civilised forum such as this can't discuss any topic without resorting to personal attacks and threats? It is an empassioned discussion, but let's keep it on topic, please.

 

[tangent]

good points Johnno & Stuster :beer:

 

[Lukes]

This thread is a great read on a dull Friday.
It has been a while since we have had such a heated topic.
I was starting to miss them.

Hypothetical questions

2) Imagine I produce a wort for a friend. All they have to do is sprinkle the yeast on top, close the fermenter and wait 7 days. They bottle it and condition it, then send some to a competition. Should they be allowed to enter? Have they actually home brewed the beer? Is it fair to let them into the competition? Is there any difference between this and the guy who bought a fresh wort kit?

Cheers
MAH

2a) What if the friend (assistant) cleans, sanitizes all the gear, helps sort the rec out on the computer, gets the malt and hops on the scales, operates the mill, checks ph and temps, at end removes the spent grain from the tun and stands around during mash and boil, drinking my previous batch, talking about brew porn :blink: .

Then he takes a cube kit home and sprinkles or stops at the LHBS and gets a fresh smak pack.

But I own the march pump :super: .

Can he win comps and keep the trophy or does he have to share it like a child in a custody battle?

- Luke

>> Congratulations to Dan on the win. <<

 

[DanRayner]

Wow... Well, well, well.

First of all, thanks to Stagger and others like Stuster and Johnno for the congrats, I appreciate it. Congrats Stagger on Champion Brewer! And to the Canberra Brewers!

I have just spent the better part of an hour reading these eleven pages of posts and that is only cos I've been at the ACT beer meeting where someone told me of this thread. I've only read a few threads on the Aussie Homebrewer site in the past and although generally good natured they always seemed to have one or two posts that would sour things, not especially friendly, which is a shame cos there do seem to be many out there with supportive and constructive comments. I have just tonight joined this forum and if the petty nature of some of the posts in this thread are anything to go by this may be the last time I post.

The AABC are about amateur brewers; people who brew for a hobby. The way I see it the primary reasons for amateur brewing competitions are to encourage the appreciation of better beer, to give blind feedback to people on their entries, and to encourage people new to the hobby. What better way to encourage people out there to continue brewing and striving for better beer than to allow them to enter their beer into a amateur brewing competion? And if we are striving to make better beer what is wrong with judging beers on how they taste rather than how they were made? Did the winner of the bohemian pilsener (is there a category for this?) actually make their brew with several decoctions? Were the lambic entries made with truly spontaneous fermentation? I sincerely doubt it. The competition is not "about judging brewers' skills", if that were so, I would be pushing for the judges to taste the beer while watching a video of the brewer creating it and skimming over a detailed recipe submitted to be certain that the brewer didn't just throw all the ingredients together and fluke the result and that it was truely done with skill and talent. This is a beer judging competition and not a brewer judging competition.

As for the comment that "this was a brewing competition, not a sanitation and temperature management competition." Well, I beg to differ, this year's CBoS is two and a half years old and I really wouldn't like to see what might happen if a kit, extract of AG beer was left to "mature" for this long without proper management...

Brewers have a great deal to do with the outcome of the quality of their beer regardless of type; I've tasted some great AGs and some undrinkable kit brews, just as I've tried some absolutely shocking AGs and similarly I've had the pleasure of drinking some very lovely beer made with kits.

My recent AG beers did quite well in the last two annual ACT comps qualifying them for the Nationals, but my k&K and extract brews did well in the previous annual ACT comp (as did one of them in this year's nationals). Did this all happen cos I was a "lucky", slap-happy K&K brewer who became a more "skilled" brewer when I switched over to AGs? No, it was because I undertook consistant method, thoughtful recipe design (at least I thought it was thoughtful, and doesn't that, by thinking about it, make it thoughtful? ) and good sanitation/temperature management - or, if you didn't get my point, I was "brewing". Just as the competition rules state by sprinkling your yeast over wort you are brewing beer. It doesn't matter whether you bought dried yeast, re-propagated slurry from a beer that used liquid wyeast, or cultured up wild yeast from slants on well-prepared agar...

Should there be two categories? Maybe you're right, maybe there should be three streams of competiton? One for fledgling K&K beers, one for beers made by pedantic, self-important AG-brewers and one for those of us who don't give a flying f&%$ about who we are judged against. I maybe "hanging up my tin opener and going into mash beer making" (and "going into mash beer making" makes it sound like I just started - the RIS was my second last kit beer made a little over two years ago, I've made 43 all-grain beers since then) but I'm quite happy to have my beers judged in a mixed competition, I am in no way threatened by it like others here seem to be.

As for MAH's suggestion:

OK inspired by PoMo's sporting analogy, I've come up with the answer using diving as the basis for judging.

Each beer gets a raw score. It's judged purely on how it tastes. The score is then multiplied by a level of difficulty factor (LDF). Kit LDF = 1.00, Kits & Bits LDF = 1.1........AG LDF = 1.5. The system aknowledges the quality of the final product but also gives due credit for the amount of individual input making it more fair.

Problem solved!

Cheers
MAH

Well even if you did factor in effort or difficulty I still reckon I might have had a shot at the CBoS with this recipe (yes that's right, this year's CBoS, free for all to see):

cheers and beers,

Dan Rayner

PS - And just to be clear, my brew buddy Alistair Hack was with me, 50% of the award should go to him, cheers Al! (does collusion with other brewers mean that this beer wasn't actually mine?!?)

PPS - apologies to those that think this is a cranky email, I'm just tired and my beer buzz is wearing off

"I'd like to thank Coopers', BYOH, and Cascade for the kits, Brewiser for some of the brew sugar, Farmland for the honey, Thomas Fawcett and Sons and Weyermann for the malt, the manufacturers of hops and yeast for their stirling efforts, Colin from BYOAH in Canberra for cracking the malt for me (as he did the malt craking, this award really should go to him!!) ummm... ActewAGL for supplying the electricity and the much needed, soft, Canberra water - I'm glad I chose Canberra water, thanks to Swap'n'Go for the Gas, this is really their beer, .... .... Kelvinator, oh crikey, I almost forgot Kelvinator, wow! where would I have been without my refidgeration and temperature control... wow! gosh, I'm getting all teary...."

 

[goatherder]

Well said Dan. Welcome to AHB and contrats on your win.

 

[Weizguy]

After seeing the recipe, does anyone still feel incllined to call this a kit beer?

Beuller? anyone?
Not me. Kit-based, if anything, or kit-inspired.

Sorry that you (felt that U) had to justify the win, Dan.

Seth out

 

[AUHEAMIC]

I hope this is not your last post on this forum Dan as it is experienced brewers such as your self that makes this site what it is (a great resource and breeding ground for novice brewers).

Congratulations on the win.

 

[bconnery]

At my homebrew clubs recent Xmas get together I was talking to one of the guys who stewarded the annual club comp about the whole kit, partial etc thing.

Our club comp had a number of classes won with kit-based beers.

Before hand one of the judges (and yes I do believe they were BJCP certified, or at least one the way, or had experience anyway...) claimed that he could always pick an extract or kit based beer over an AG one.

Afterwards he was asked if this was the case how come a number won classes?

Well, he said, I guess I just didn't pick those ones...


What does this tell us, who really knows. Except perhaps that good beer is good beer.

For what it is also worth the overall best in comp was an AG...

Which was then produced commercially, and the resounding opinion was that the commercially produced version lacked some of the complexity and depth of the homebrewed version, which is perhaps a whole other topic in itself...

I would also add my congratulations to Dan and hope that ANY homebrewer would find this forum an invaluable resource as I have and will continue to do so, regardless of chosen method or level of brewing.

 

[Maxt]

I'm glad I pointed this thread out to you last night Dan, but I am truly amazed that you can be so lucid after such a long brew club meeting!

:chug: :beer:

 

[Steve]

onya dan :beer:

 

[Boots]

sorry to weigh in so late ... and i hope i'm not just regurgitating something already said ..

Congrats on the win Dan - hopefully you don't take the bickering as attacks at you - it's one of the ongoing "debates" around here. To be honest, it *should* be harder for a beer such as yours to win best of show - all the AG arguments say that anyway. Lets face it, if an AG didn't win it, all us all grainers should be patting you on the back and then working out why we're not making accurate stylistic representations - with all that extra control we have over the process ....

I reckon the categories should be split, but only so that the "To get feedback on my beer" goal of most brewers can be better dealt with.

Having had the vast experience of judging 1 flight in one comp (well ... it was a big flight ok) it's too hard to confidently provide any kind of feedback when you know nothing of the process involved in making (notice i didn't say brewing ) the beer.

If the beer is too dry for style, do we say "next time, try raising the mash temp" or do we say "Next time try adding some maltodextrin or steep some crystal malt" . If the beer is infected do we say "take care to crush your grain in an area away from you brewing area" or do we say "Clean the outside of the can, and take care with anything that comes in contact with the wort".
I know of at least one case where an all grain beer was given advice aimed at a K&K beer -- totally defeating the point of entering the comp.

By splitting the categories better feedback will be possible. I'd actually go as far as saying that some indication of ingredients and process would be required if competitions are ever going to provide satisfactory feedback.

Cheers

 

[Steve Lacey]

Wow, the 23rd and 24th of November were busy old days huh! The 23rd was a national holiday in Japan and I was off running a marathon and missed the further development of this thread.

Glad to see this conversation taking place; sorry that some people see it as being about knocking kit beers or kit brewing or competitions per se. I don't think it is. I don't think anybody thinks Dan did not produce a great beer. Nor that kit brewing is any less valid a way of turning out beer to drink in your own home. Nor that kit brewing should not be something subject to competitions. The conversation is about whether we need to revise some fundamental aspects about the we way structure competitions to reflect the way the hobby has changed.

Central to this is the question: just what exactly are you judging in a competition? Is it the beer as an end to itself, and the method is immaterial, or are we judging the beer as a representation of the brewer's skill and technique? If it is the latter, which I think clearly most people take it to be, then you need to be judging like with like. You need a common base, within some guiding parameters (some of the examples regarding malting and yeast ranching etc have just been red herrings). The problem with home brewing is that there are several quite different paths by which you arrive at the same end point.

Keep in mind that competitions currently judge beer produced by widely varying approaches side by side because once upon a time brewing by kits was about the only way that people made beer at home. But over the years that has gradually changed ot the point where many, if not the majority, of beers in comps are full-grain beers. Maybe it is time for some hard decisions to be made for competition structures to finally change to reflect that. I would also point out that this issue has been around for years now. But the break has never come because comps need sponsorship, and until recently, without kit industry sponsorship there was no comp. Hardly an environment in which you could seriously question the status quo to address this fundamental question.

Personally I think it is a no brainer. It is just a question of biting the bullet and implementing it. The only real decision to be made is whether you have separate comps or just separate divisions within comps. I won't be holding my breath waiting for any of this to happen on a wide scale though.