Kit And Grain Brew

[b_thomas]

Long question, hopefully a quick answer.

I'm wanting to make the step towards AG by doing a partial but rather than confusing myself with hops additions I'd really rather just use a pre-hopped kit. Just means I can focus more on the mash and boil. Which then brings me to the important part - boiling a pre-hopped kit - will it affect the hops utilisation?

Basically I want to keep it simple

Munich Helles 22L
1.7kg Lager Kit
3.0kg Vienna Malt
Dry Lager Yeast

I'm working with a 75% efficiency but have increased the grain bill in case it's lower. I'm using a braided hose and a batch sparge so not expecting perfect extraction.

When I'm doing a kit I don't boil the kit I just dissolve it in near-boiling water along with dry malt in the fermenter before topping up with iced water (have been reading otherwise though, hence my question).

Should I just do the same with but with Wort instead of Water? or should I dump it in at the start of the boil?

I'm assuming since hops utilisation pretty much maxes out at 90mins that I'm not going to end up with a beer that's any more or less bitter than if I had followed a normal kit and kilo procedure.

 

[microbe]

I've not done that before but have toyed with idea of doing exactly that. My plan was (and someday will be) to boil what I've extracted only and dissolve the kit with that.

Cheers,

microbe

 

[Beerbuoy]

Should I just do the same with but with Wort instead of Water? or should I dump it in at the start of the boil?

I'm assuming since hops utilisation pretty much maxes out at 90mins that I'm not going to end up with a beer that's any more or less bitter than if I had followed a normal kit and kilo procedure.

I would use the hot wort to disolve the kit. Boiling it will affect the hop flavor and probably increase the bitternes.

When I do partials I will put the kit in the boil for the last minute to disolve and sanitize. Not that the kit contents really need sanitizing. Don't boil it any longer than a minute or the hop flavor may become more bitter.

You may want to think about adding some extra hops to balance the grain you are adding. Adding grain instead of dextrose will add sweetness and needs to be balanced with hops.

Check out the recipie database for ideas. You will make better bears with grain. Go for it.

Cheers

Ian

 

[seemax]

I think it will be too sweet, what kit are you using? The Coopers Lager is < 20IBU from memory.

3kg of grain is a decent size, how big is your mash tun (esky i assume) ?

Hop additions are not terribly confusing and will produce a really nice result compared to kits. Calculating IBU's is simple with Beersmith, Promash, etc or even the free software brewsta, or even many free web based calculators.

Personally I would rather do an all extract DIY hop boil as opposed to a pre hopped kit and partial mash. Both methods will take the same time. Kits seem to have an iso twang... once you have hopped yourself you will see what I mean. You can control the exact IBU and do some late additions for wonderful flavour and aroma.

 

[b_thomas]

Cheers for the reply guys. I'm not huge on overly bitter beers so to lose a couple of IBU's won't matter too much.

I'll probably just drop the kit in at flameout.

I typically use either dried or liquid malt, have never really used dextrose unless it was for bottling. With that I've always perceived my kits batches to be bitter enough. So I probably won't play around with hops. I have some Hallertau in deep freeze if I feel tempted on the day.

Anyways thanks for the advice, now it's time to start the ordering

 

[RobboMC]

I've been told 0.6% abv per kg of grain or thereabouts anyway.
From memory a 500g of dme yields 0.9% abv,
so by simple division one kg of grain would equal 333g of dme.

Now you're thinking of 3kg of grain, so that's eqivelent to 1000g of dme.

Now most people here seem to think a typical kit will balance up to 750g of dme.
Too much malt makes the beer too sweet. Your grain runnings will need a short boil
anyway to ensure sanitation, so why not pop in 20g of hallertau while you're at it.

Your beer wil be better for it.

In January I made my first ever kit-free brew, and wow! it's so much better than even the
best quality kits. Trouble is now I have to lock away that batch until I drink all the old kit stuff.

Kits get you a long way, but full extract partials are well worth the fiddly boiling and stuff.

 

[seemax]

Cheers for the reply guys. I'm not huge on overly bitter beers so to lose a couple of IBU's won't matter too much.

I was more referring to usings real hops to deliver the desired IBU, not necessarily for a bitter beer.
Kits use isohops (oil extract) which can be quite harsh, and tend to have very little in the way of aroma.

Not to worry, good luck with the brew!

 

[b_thomas]

Answering and commenting disjointedly.

I've had a few bad runs with doing extract brews (got a little adventurous with a Grand Cru which spoiled it for me for the time being) so had decided to touch base and do a few kits, I manged to find one that I really enjoyed, so thought rather than use extract I'd use grain.

My mastun is a Techni Ice 60L ... I'll be no-sparging and I love my Trippels so something that size isn't too large as an investment. I'll actually be breaking it in on this mash, I was using a Willow 15L drum style esky.

I'm intending on doing a full 60min boil just to test out a few things like evaporation and caramelisation. I may just throw in the Hallertau in the last 10-15mins. I don't know why im intimidated by hops, most people worry about mashing. It's the other way around for me.

 

[Brewtus]

My effort ended up with a beer that was too bitter as the late hops still contribute to bitterness as well as flavour and aroma. Ditch the kit and use extract and real hops.

 

[rclemmett]

My effort ended up with a beer that was too bitter as the late hops still contribute to bitterness as well as flavour and aroma. Ditch the kit and use extract and real hops.

+1

Using real hops will greatly increase the quality of the end result...... real beer.

 

[manticle]

Towards the end of last year I went into a bike shop to buy (of all things) a bike.

I said to the salesman, "I want a mountain bike, 12-15 speed for something between $300 and $600.

His reply was: "Well I have here a single speed hybrid for just over $900".

It's a bit like that here.

Brewer 1: "Hi I want to make a brew using kits and grains and not worry too much about the hops"

Brewer 2: "You should totally use hops".

Don't get me wrong.

Hops are great. This forum is great. A wealth of knowledge, friendly polite people and much to be learned by an ignoramus like me if I so desire (and I do). However sometimes it would be nice to read a question about kits where somebody doesn't recommend going all grain or a post about adding grain to kits where somebody doesn't say "ditch the kit and go partial".

I apologise to the original poster that I can't answer your question with the aforementioned wealth of knowledge as a back up but have a go at what you think is going to work. When it's done, think of ways you could improve (unless it's a corker). If it comes back to hop utilisation and you identify that, then great. If it comes back to a different grain schedule or using LME instead of kits, then great. Otherwise have a crack - brewing is as much about experimentation and fun as it is about getting it right.

To attempt a slightly pathetic answer of sorts to your question though, I don't think there's any need to boil the kit. My understanding is that the bitterness is there to stay so you may remove some of the flavour and aroma profile but if you're not hopping then you possibly want to avoid that. Malt flavour is different from hop flavour but both are necessary.

 

[rclemmett]

Towards the end of last year I went into a bike shop to buy (of all things) a bike.

I said to the salesman, "I want a mountain bike, 12-15 speed for something between $300 and $600.

His reply was: "Well I have here a single speed hybrid for just over $900".

It's a bit like that here.

Brewer 1: "Hi I want to make a brew using kits and grains and not worry too much about the hops"

Brewer 2: "You should totally use hops".

Don't get me wrong.

Hops are great. This forum is great. A wealth of knowledge, friendly polite people and much to be learned by an ignoramus like me if I so desire (and I do). However sometimes it would be nice to read a question about kits where somebody doesn't recommend going all grain or a post about adding grain to kits where somebody doesn't say "ditch the kit and go partial".

I apologise to the original poster that I can't answer your question with the aforementioned wealth of knowledge as a back up but have a go at what you think is going to work. When it's done, think of ways you could improve (unless it's a corker). If it comes back to hop utilisation and you identify that, then great. If it comes back to a different grain schedule or using LME instead of kits, then great. Otherwise have a crack - brewing is as much about experimentation and fun as it is about getting it right.

To attempt a slightly pathetic answer of sorts to your question though, I don't think there's any need to boil the kit. My understanding is that the bitterness is there to stay so you may remove some of the flavour and aroma profile but if you're not hopping then you possibly want to avoid that. Malt flavour is different from hop flavour but both are necessary.

So did you get the hybrid or go to kmart and buy something you'll regret?

 

[Screwtop]

Answering and commenting disjointedly.

I've had a few bad runs with doing extract brews (got a little adventurous with a Grand Cru which spoiled it for me for the time being) so had decided to touch base and do a few kits, I manged to find one that I really enjoyed, so thought rather than use extract I'd use grain.

My mastun is a Techni Ice 60L ... I'll be no-sparging and I love my Trippels so something that size isn't too large as an investment. I'll actually be breaking it in on this mash, I was using a Willow 15L drum style esky.

I'm intending on doing a full 60min boil just to test out a few things like evaporation and caramelisation. I may just throw in the Hallertau in the last 10-15mins. I don't know why im intimidated by hops, most people worry about mashing. It's the other way around for me.

Some thoughts b_thomas: The 1.7Kg of extract has already been boiled to reach max hop utilisation. Extract contributes only about 35% of your fermentables in this recipe with the Vienna contributing the remainder. I believe that your bittering will be low due this this. If your 1.7Kg of extract is bittered to say 25IBU then your total IBU for 21L including the Vienna would only be around 12IBU. The OG for 1.7Kg of extract plus 3Kg of Vienna mashed at a low efficiency of say 60% would yield around 1.046 just inside the style OG for a Helles, but your bitterness would be only about 12IBU.

My 2c worth. Add 10IBU (20G if they are 4.8%AA) of Hallertauer hops for 40min (not 60). The bittering hops used in the kit extract are most likely fairly savage (High AA) or hop extract. So adding the soft noble hops a bit later is what I would do to balance this off.

Should make a nice lager.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Bribie G]

I agree with Manticle, there's a place for kits and partials. Another route to take would be to ditch the Coopers Lager tin and use a blander kit such as a Morgans Canadian, or a Coopers Canadian for the background 'goop' and add about 20g of your Hallertau as a late hop addition.

After mashing and sparging the Munich you will need to boil it for at least an hour, and suggest putting the hops in for the last 10 minutes.

That way you will get maximum flavour but minimum isohop 'twang'.

I'm basically an AG brewer but regularly do a partial every third brew with a light beer kit and it gives a very nice, light drinking lawnmower beer. I actually do a full size mash & brew and cube the wort into a few small cubes so one mashing provides enough little fresh wort kits to do four easy quick brews. Doing one tomorrow actually with the last of my mini cubes then start the process all over again.

 

[DUANNE]

bribie you have got me intrigued with your partials. when you make the bulk wort do you use just a base malt and do you hop it at all. i have heard that un hopped wort would spoil pretty quickly but does the no chill overcome this? it sounds like something i might have to give a go sometime for sure.

 

[manticle]

So did you get the hybrid or go to kmart and buy something you'll regret?

Bought a muntain bike from the bike shop for 470 and couldn't be happier.

K-mart? pft.

 

[Bribie G]

bribie you have got me intrigued with your partials. when you make the bulk wort do you use just a base malt and do you hop it at all. i have heard that un hopped wort would spoil pretty quickly but does the no chill overcome this? it sounds like something i might have to give a go sometime for sure.

I do a plain five k mash with Galaxy or BB Ale malt and hop it with 30g Pride of Ringwood for 20 minutes and about 20 g of NZ BSaaz for 10 mins.

The wort is split between 4 cubes and represents 1.25 k of grain per brew, gives that nice fresh malt aroma that's been boiled out of the kits when they make them. However I found that even with that fairly low hop rate I was still getting too much bitter finish with Coopers lager tins so the last one was Morgans Canadian Light instead. I'm bottling it tomorrow, has been in crash chill for about ten days, so the taste will tell

A few members have said why not just use light malt extract instead. Unfortunately I don't have access to guaranteed fresh malt extract here and old extract can be horribly twangy and darkens in the tin over time. The last time I used it this was the result of a tin of Morgans Queensland Bitter, supposed to turn out like XXXX colour, and a tin of pale malt extract:



Picture says a thousand words. At least kits if bought from a high turnover store are more or less guaranteed to turn out to a consistent standard.

 

[DUANNE]

thanks bribie. i will have to do a batch for the old man. ive just gone all grain but he wants to stick with extracts for now so hopefully this could help swing him over to the dark side. :icon_cheers:

 

[b_thomas]

Well ended up scrapping the Kit idea after reading about the loss of bitterness, seemed more of a PITA than just boiling the hops. In 12.5L of Wort I dropped in 30g Hallertau 8% for 60mins and 10g Hallertau 5.5% for 10mins. Dumped in the extract for 15min to boil. Then mixed it in with 12L of ice cold water to make 23L

Calculated around 20IBU which typically hits the spot just nicely for my tastes

I calculated around a 55-60% efficiency, which I admit isn't ideal but hey it was my first crack at mashing.

It's good to see that there are different trains of thought on my opening post. Although that's something I'd expect from a homebrew forum, everyone has their own way of doing things and no one person is the owner of the truth

Hopefully in 6 weeks time I'll be able to come back and say it was a good brew.

 

[Brewtus]

Towards the end of last year I went into a bike shop to buy (of all things) a bike.

I said to the salesman, "I want a mountain bike, 12-15 speed for something between $300 and $600.

His reply was: "Well I have here a single speed hybrid for just over $900".

It's a bit like that here.

Brewer 1: "Hi I want to make a brew using kits and grains and not worry too much about the hops"

Brewer 2: "You should totally use hops".

Don't get me wrong.

Hops are great. This forum is great. A wealth of knowledge, friendly polite people and much to be learned by an ignoramus like me if I so desire (and I do). However sometimes it would be nice to read a question about kits where somebody doesn't recommend going all grain or a post about adding grain to kits where somebody doesn't say "ditch the kit and go partial".

I apologise to the original poster that I can't answer your question with the aforementioned wealth of knowledge as a back up but have a go at what you think is going to work. When it's done, think of ways you could improve (unless it's a corker). If it comes back to hop utilisation and you identify that, then great. If it comes back to a different grain schedule or using LME instead of kits, then great. Otherwise have a crack - brewing is as much about experimentation and fun as it is about getting it right.

To attempt a slightly pathetic answer of sorts to your question though, I don't think there's any need to boil the kit. My understanding is that the bitterness is there to stay so you may remove some of the flavour and aroma profile but if you're not hopping then you possibly want to avoid that. Malt flavour is different from hop flavour but both are necessary.

OK, The hops and extract cost about the same or less than the kit so no $900 bike here.

Also the kit is like a one gear bike. Separating the hops from the kit means you can use the hops you like and not base it on how the kit is hopped like having a choice of gears.

Maybe at this bike shop you pointed to the one gear hybrid and ask 'how can I use it on different slopes?'

I have done what you are suggesting and come out the other side. Don't get me wrong though.