Kegging Too Early?

[azztech]

So I brewed my first two lagers (bud clones) a few weeks ago and followed the specific instructions from the LHBS to the letter:

1. Boil (kits + specialty grains and hops) and distribute to two 23L fermenters
2. Store at ~10c for 14 days in temp control fridge
3. Bring temp up to 16c for 3 days for D rest
4. Rack off to kegs
5. Store in kegs at 2c for another 14 days (haven't finished this yet)

When I racked off to my kegs yesterday, I didn't take an SG read until after I had already racked off and transferred to 2c fridge.
I took an SG read with some of the remaining beer that I would normally bottle (that few litres extra). The SG was 1014 and my OG was 1038.

This sounds really high to me. Will it continue to drop at lager temps?

I used two different lager yeasts: 1x M84 for one 23L fermenter and 2x S23 for the other (again at LHBS recommendation).

To make matters worse, I racked off both fermenters to the one bottling bucket to bottle the few remaining litres and the SG sample comes from there so it's kinda a combined reading...

I can (and probably will) crack the two kegs and take individual readings to see where they're at, but any thoughts on the high reading at this stage of the conditioning?

 

[Rocker1986]

Not sure why they would be recommending to boil the kits... what kits and other additions were in the recipe(s)? 1.014 does sound high but without knowing what's actually in it, it's hard to say definitely. It's unlikely to drop at lager temps, as the yeast won't really be actively doing anything. It's possible that the one that you only used one yeast packet in stalled due to being underpitched and the other one fermented out properly and so by mixing the two together you've ended up with a higher reading.

You really need two packets of yeast for a lager brew unless you're starting it off around 20C and then dropping it down after 12-24 hours. The preferred method is to pitch at fermenting temps though so the two packs would be needed in this case.

 

[azztech]

Not sure why they would be recommending to boil the kits... what kits and other additions were in the recipe(s)? 1.014 does sound high but without knowing what's actually in it, it's hard to say definitely. It's unlikely to drop at lager temps, as the yeast won't really be actively doing anything. It's possible that the one that you only used one yeast packet in stalled due to being underpitched and the other one fermented out properly and so by mixing the two together you've ended up with a higher reading.

You really need two packets of yeast for a lager brew unless you're starting it off around 20C and then dropping it down after 12-24 hours. The preferred method is to pitch at fermenting temps though so the two packs would be needed in this case.

Not boiled like an extract or all-grain, just bringing the specialty grain steeped water to the boil for 15 mins and adding specialty hops.

I was told by the LHBS that the M84 only needs one packet for a 23L but the S23 does need two. I've never done a lager before so just went on advice. I was suspicious at the time though.

I pitched at ~16c and then dropped them into my 10c fridge so it does take ~24 hours for the volume to get down to 10c.

FWIW the M84 airlock was bubbling away even harder than the S23 one. Heaps activity seen throughout the 10c conditioning.

If I find that one is high, do you think it's worth moving the keg back to 10c for another week or until I see SG stabilize (something I should have done anyway probably)?

 

[Blind Dog]

Odd advice from the LHBS. If you're running a decent sized professional brewery with an experience team, then it may well be possible to produce beer to ta precise schedule. But to tell a newbie brewer to effectively stop fermentation 2 weeks in is just plain wrong. For any beer, its the SG that will tell you when its done (possibly backed up by a fast ferment test it there is any doubt - but dont worry about that yet). Also odd that they advised the use of 1 sachet of M-84 when MJ's website says to use 2 in 23L of wort

If an uncarbonated sample from the kegs can be taken in a sanitary manner (I'd give it a squirt of C02 and use a picnic tap set up), then I would do so to check the SG. If its still high I'd ferment it out in the keg, back at 10C or maybe a touch more, but remember to burb the CO2 from time to time. If its around 1.010, I'd be inclined to leave as is at 2C to condition.

 

[azztech]

Odd advice from the LHBS. If you're running a decent sized professional brewery with an experience team, then it may well be possible to produce beer to ta precise schedule. But to tell a newbie brewer to effectively stop fermentation 2 weeks in is just plain wrong. For any beer, its the SG that will tell you when its done (possibly backed up by a fast ferment test it there is any doubt - but dont worry about that yet). Also odd that they advised the use of 1 sachet of M-84 when MJ's website says to use 2 in 23L of wort

If an uncarbonated sample from the kegs can be taken in a sanitary manner (I'd give it a squirt of C02 and use a picnic tap set up), then I would do so to check the SG. If its still high I'd ferment it out in the keg, back at 10C or maybe a touch more, but remember to burb the CO2 from time to time. If its around 1.010, I'd be inclined to leave as is at 2C to condition.

Yeah I'm only 5 brews in and my previous ales I waited for the gravity to steady before bottling/kegging but I was told that 14 days on 10c and the D rest would be right for kegging.

I assumed from my chat with them about lagering that terminal gravity wouldn't be reached until they had been lagered (@ 2c) for a while so I wasn't overly concerned, but when I saw the high reading I thought there's no way it'll drop another 5-10 points at 2c, surely...

Originally they only gave me 1x M84 and 1x S23 but when I read the S23 pack it said use 2x for 23L of wort so I rang them to confirm and that's when they said "yeah sorry, come grab another S23 - you'll be right with the 1x M84 though".

The LHBS has been really good with advice to date so not worried about one bit of bad advice. They're still a great shop. Might just do some more reading before jumping into my next round of lagers.

 

[Coodgee]

there's no particular reason why a "fully" attentuated beer (1010 or lower) will taste better than one that was stopped at 1014. You might find you would like a slightly maltier, maybe slightly sweeter lager better. I'd probably just continue to condition it cold and change the process next time.

 

[Rocker1986]

Good stuff on the boiling aspect there, that all sounds fine.

Yeah that's pretty weird advice on the yeast. Lager yeast is lager yeast in that sense, although I suspect a lot of the reason for the doubling of the pitching rates is due to the lower temperatures that they are generally fermented at. So yeah, should have been two packets of M84 as well.

In theory 14 days at 10C plus a D-rest should see the beer at FG. But sometimes the yeast don't do what we want them to. My lagers are all at FG by about 8-10 days but I use a different fermentation schedule. I also 'lager' them in the FV for 2 weeks prior to kegging/bottling.

You could bring it out of the 2C fridge and let it warm up to see if it drops any lower, yes. Or if it tastes fine as is, you could leave it in there. Even if it does drop a bit more very slowly, it's not gonna blow up the keg or anything.

In any case, it's best to make sure the SG is stable before packaging regardless of whether it's an ale or lager style beer, especially if some of it is going into bottles.

 

[Coodgee]

yeah true my advice above is only regarding kegging beer. you definitely want to get to a stable final gravity if you are bottling!!

 

[azztech]

there's no particular reason why a "fully" attentuated beer (1010 or lower) will taste better than one that was stopped at 1014. You might find you would like a slightly maltier, maybe slightly sweeter lager better. I'd probably just continue to condition it cold and change the process next time.

Roger that. It's not really taste I'm concerned about, but more the ABV.

 

[Coodgee]

An important consideration

 

[azztech]

So just an update with these lagers; they have been in the fridge about what, two weeks maybe.
I cracked the kegs last night to take a taste sample and they still have a real sulfur (rotten egg) smell.
I used two different yeasts and when in the primary FVs one was more smelly than the other - case remains the same. One has a mild hint of sulfur and the other is quite potent.

In reading it appears the gas (hydrogen sulfide?) dissipates during lagering. I'd say the scent level is not much different to kegging day after about two weeks. Any ideas on how long I'll need to leave them?
Any ideas on how to speed up that process? as other than the smell they already taste pretty good.
I read that you can reverse your gas line and CO2 flood the keg from the bottom similar to the de-gas method for over-carb, scrubbing out the sulfur gas - but sounds harsh on the beer, and a foamy mess.

Another thought I had was to leave them another week or two, then force-carb, release the pressure value and leave open and let the co2 escape - maybe scrubbing the sulfur gasses out slower and with less mess.

I know most answers are going to be 'be patient' but I have two of my four kegs taken up with this gear and half my refrigerated space so I'm pretty keen to get them going. In hindsight I shouldn't have lagered before I had a bigger stockpile of HB and even then I shouldn't have done a double batch that's taking up space and equipment... I don't mind having one sitting there lagering but would like to speed up the other one for drinking.

 

[Rocker1986]

On the surface it would seem to me that you would need a vessel that isn't sealed, like a fermenter, in order for the H2S to escape. Perhaps because they have been in sealed kegs, it has no way out. Mine certainly have none of that smell left, even before I cold crash them, but perhaps the yeast I'm using doesn't give it off as much. Some are worse than others, as you have experienced here.

You may be able to push it out by using that reverse gas line method. I have to say I don't really know as this is not an issue that I have ever been confronted with, but that certainly sounds the quickest...

 

[manticle]

there's no particular reason why a "fully" attentuated beer (1010 or lower) will taste better than one that was stopped at 1014. You might find you would like a slightly maltier, maybe slightly sweeter lager better. I'd probably just continue to condition it cold and change the process next time.

Nor

there's no particular reason why a "fully" attentuated beer (1010 or lower) will taste better than one that was stopped at 1014. You might find you would like a slightly maltier, maybe slightly sweeter lager better. I'd probably just continue to condition it cold and change the process next time.

s

there's no particular reason why a "fully" attentuated beer (1010 or lower) will taste better than one that was stopped at 1014. You might find you would like a slightly maltier, maybe slightly sweeter lager better. I'd probably just continue to condition it cold and change the process next time.

re

there's no particular reason why a "fully" attentuated beer (1010 or lower) will taste better than one that was stopped at 1014. You might find you would like a slightly maltier, maybe slightly sweeter lager better. I'd probably just continue to condition it cold and change the process next time.

Not sure I agree.
Fully attenuated and conditioned allows the reabsorption of by products like acetaldehyde and diacetyl by healthy yeast.