TidalPete
BREWING BY THE BEACH
I'm not from up 'Your Way' Pete, so my hole is regular, normal size.
Cheers
But, but, but, I don't live in Seedneey!
h34r: :lol: TP
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Keg King Elements
- Thread starter QldKev
- Start date
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But, but, but, I don't live in Seedneey!
h34r: :lol: TP
TidalPete
BREWING BY THE BEACH
Muahahaha.... Where's the 'Like' button
Not too many responses as yet Nickster. :lol:
TP
I got another one mounted ready for tomorrows brew day. I'm going to try with just 2 of the elements.
The 2kw from ebay had brass bushes, and drew 1900w. The ones I ordered direct from the site have s/s bushes and draw 2200w. Both are very close in the sizes, and mount up the same.
QldKev
The 2kw from ebay had brass bushes, and drew 1900w. The ones I ordered direct from the site have s/s bushes and draw 2200w. Both are very close in the sizes, and mount up the same.
QldKev
HBHB
Well-Known Member
I'd say if it doesn't work, then it's probably cooked and dead.
If it doesn't work I would say it's screwed.. Was it a Keg King or the new U-bend. If it's a u-bend won't be too bad took hook up another and keep going.
QldKev
IainMcLean
Well-Known Member
I was afraid its that. Well, its the Keg King one. If I do get the U-Bend type, I'll have to keep the old busted one in there to keep the damn hole plugged
Search back a few posts, for Frothie's link to Geordie in Cheltenham. They sell a SS stop end that will fit your hole. Buy a nut for it, and then put a couple of tiny holes in it for a u-bend one. Job done. I'm potentially facing the same thing when my Keg King element gives up...
When he was here last week we were discussing it and both figured it'd work well... wrap some ptfe tape around it as a 'washer' and you're set if the hole in your keggle is a bit oversized.
Just a heads up. I removed the element I had in my kettle, no problems with it, but given the reported issues, I figure I would look at other options.
I was working out how I was going to fill the hole, and as I was going to fit a side mounted ball valve and pickup tube, I started playing with the fittings I had laying around. If you don't mind brass, and I don't, a brass garden tap adaptor for reducing from a 1" tap to 3/4" fitted through the hole perfectly. I placed this through the hole from the inside, screwed a 1" ball valve onto it, with some silicone gaskets, and the deed was done. Brass elbow with pickup tube on the inside took care of the pickup.
If there is any interest I will post some pics.
I was working out how I was going to fill the hole, and as I was going to fit a side mounted ball valve and pickup tube, I started playing with the fittings I had laying around. If you don't mind brass, and I don't, a brass garden tap adaptor for reducing from a 1" tap to 3/4" fitted through the hole perfectly. I placed this through the hole from the inside, screwed a 1" ball valve onto it, with some silicone gaskets, and the deed was done. Brass elbow with pickup tube on the inside took care of the pickup.
If there is any interest I will post some pics.
pk.sax
RIP bum
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I've found some 1.25" NPT SS reducing bushes on eBay for ~ $6 posted, thinking of going for the 1/2" reduction and also buying a 1/2" thermowell to go in there. That should fix things up nicely.
The other alternative is to source an alternative 1.25" element locally, waiting to hear back from a friend who knows a place. Depending on cost etc, will have to make a decision.
I was looking at what size the threads for the U shape elements are and a little worried about what it I need to plug that hole in the future! 1.25" is a more common size at least...
Bah, decisions.
The other alternative is to source an alternative 1.25" element locally, waiting to hear back from a friend who knows a place. Depending on cost etc, will have to make a decision.
I was looking at what size the threads for the U shape elements are and a little worried about what it I need to plug that hole in the future! 1.25" is a more common size at least...
Bah, decisions.
Acasta
Bro Member
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These look like they'd be great in a converted keg HLT! Has anyone tried them? Any ideas on an install?
I have been planning on reporting these devices to the Office of the Regulator / ACMA for some time now because I reckon they're flat out dangerous. As you'll see in the email exchange with Kee below, I think the cable they are using (and the white plastic) is not of high enough temperature rating. I have removed all that rubbish and installed a junction box which connects to high temperature silicone cable on my HLT and gone for gas on the kettle because I was so disappointed with the things.
Sounds like they're still running the same cable hence the problem remains - you be the judge (read from the bottom):
From: boneski
Sent: Saturday, 14 January 2012 8:22 AM
To: keedoery
Cc: ross
Subject: RE: 2200W element explosion
Hi Kee,
I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying here. It was pretty clear the insulation broke down inside of the cord due to excessive temperature - not at the point where the cable was terminated (joins the element wires) because the faliure happened outside of the element. Furthermore, I would venture to say that this heat did indeed transmit through the wire from the element. The difference between these elements and a kettle is that the IEC power connector is not attached directly to the element which affords some thermal isolation, hence they can use a standard domestic temperature range PVC cable. But sure, lets say the insulation is all good and operating within it's acceptable temperature range on these elements (50 degrees tops right?) and for whatever reason something goes wrong and all of a sudden you've got another 30 degrees in the equation and you're up to 80 degrees and things start to melt. I just think you're cutting it a bit fine running a cable so close to it's maximum operating temperature - I certainly would not do this in the industrial electrical environment I work in because it would be asking for trouble. 180 degree C silicone cable is an obvious choice.
All this aside, it sounds like there have been some improvements made to these newer elements which is good because I am no longer willing to use the remaining two working ones for fear of personal injury / my house burning down.
I'll send the other two elements back to Ross if you could send me three new ones as soon as possible.
Thanks.
To: boneski
Subject: RE: 2200W element explosion
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 18:37:23 +1100
Hello,
If you send the other 2 units back to us we have no problem replacing all 3 of them. Normally returns would be handles by the retailer (in your case Craft Brewer).
The cords on the new elements are a heat resistant PVC with a fire retardant inside the encasing. The issue you had with the previous element is not due to the temperature resistance of the cord. Under normal operation the back of the element where the cord is mounted will not exceed 50C. The cord on the elements has a temperature rating of 72.5C. Beyond this temperature you would have to go to 180C in order for the PVC to start breaking down. This is the reason that various water heating devices (such as kettles) use the same lead.
Silicon leads are a common choice where the cord can come into direct contact with the heat source which is not possible if the heated part of the element is mounted to a vessel and submersed in liquid of some sort.
The issue that you had with the element in the past was not the cord, it was due to the terminals where the cord was joined to the back of the element. This is the place where the burn out has most likely occurred.
Please let me know if you are going to send the other two elements back or if you would just like us to send this single replacement unit to you.
Regards,
Kee Dry
Proprietor
Keg King Keg Dispense Specialists
http://www.kegking.com.au
From: boneski
Sent: Friday, 13 January 2012 3:36 PM
To: keedoey
Subject: RE: 2200W element explosion
Kee, thanks for responding and clafifying my questions on approvals etc.
Would I be right in saying that the cable has been upgraded to a silicone insulated, high temperature type?
As I mentioned in my original email, I have three of these elements in total and I think the other two are about to let go in the same way.
Are you able to replace all three?
Thanks.
To: boneski
Subject: RE: 2200W element explosion
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:15:23 +1100
Hello,
Sorry about that I though I had already replied to your email.
As I have discussed with Ross from craft brewer, we did get a number of elements that we received last year at approximately start of September. This batch of elements we saw a unusual rate of returns for exactly the same reason as you have described.
We have since resolved the issue and have more stock of much more reliable elements.
If you send me your street postal address I would be more than happy to send you a replacement in the mail.
With regards to the approvals, this item is classified as a component. Not an appliance. The Australian standard approvals is definitely required on all APPIANCES that use submersible elements. As this is a component it does not classify as an appliance and can only be called an appliance once installed to a vessel, it is not possible to get it approved as an appliance the way that it is sold. With that said, once you have finished installing the element into your boiler, this component then is classified as a boiler which is an appliance. Behind closed doors in the privacy of your own home you can use any electrical device you make at home with out approvals, however if you wanted to then sell your home made boiler second hand you would have to make sure it was made to suit AS60335.2.15 which is the Australian standards for Appliances for Heating Liquids.
Kee Dry
Proprietor
Keg King Keg Dispense Specialists
http://www.kegking.com.au
From: boneski
Sent: Friday, 13 January 2012 7:14 AM
To: keedoery
Cc: ross
Subject: FW: 2200W element explosion
Importance: High
Hi there,
I know you only returned to business on Tuesday, but can you please respond to this?
I'm looking to resolve this issue so I can return back to brewing ASAP.
Thanks,
boneski
To: keedoery
CC: ross
Subject: 2200W element explosion
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:19:31 +1030
Mr. Doery,
I write to you on this matter after speaking with Ross at Craft Brewer, who recommended I communicate with your company directly.
On 9 November 2011 I purchased 3 of your 2200W elements from Craft Brewer.
These elements are used as one in my HLT and two in my kettle.
On initial receipt of these goods I noticed that the cable coming out of these elements seemed to be somewhat overly flexy, particularly at the point where the white insulation from the element meets the black cable. This situation had degraded over the last few brews even though particular care had been taken with this in mind.
During my 3rd AGB boil today in which I was using one element only on the kettle, I heard a loud "bang" about 1.5 mins before the end of the boil.
Inspection revealed there was a large blackened hole that had been blasted through the main outer cable sheath with plenty of carbon produced. See attached pictures.
I looked up the specification stamped on the cable (60227 IEC 53 - document also attached) and the part that stood out immediately was the maximum working temperature of the cable - 70 degrees centigrade. This is a general purpose domestic cable which is clearly unsuitable for this service environment and I can say with certainty that the manufacturers incorrect cable selection has caused this faliure.
Ross indicated that Keg King have had some ongoing problems with these elements, especially related to the cords. Using a silicone based cable with an appropriate temperature rating and revising the cable exit arrangement would go a long way to solving these problems. Either way, because of this cable issue, I've got one element that's blown up and another two that are definitely unreliable.
As an electrical tradesman I also deem these elements to be unsafe and as such, I highly doubt that this electrical apparatus complies with the AS/NZ electrical appliance safety standard and they most defintely do not comply with the marking / labelling practices contained within this standard. Further to this, I have also noticed that these elements lack EMC type approval labelling, or C-TICK approval as it's more commonly known and as far as I'm aware, all electrical appliances sold in Australia legally require this approval.
Obviously I'm looking for some sort of resoution here as I can't brew without heating, and without these elements I've just got some expensive stainless pots with 32mm holes drilled in them.
Ideed I am also seeking clarification on the current status of this products' AS/NZ electrical appliance safety certification and C-TICK type approval. I am genuinely concerned for the safety of others using these elements in the worthy and usually enjoyable pursuit of making beer.
I will be uncontactable during office hours on the mobile for the next two weeks starting tomorrow (Tuesday 3 January) so email is best.
Thanks in advance for your prompt reply.
Sincerely,
boneski
Sounds like they're still running the same cable hence the problem remains - you be the judge (read from the bottom):
From: boneski
Sent: Saturday, 14 January 2012 8:22 AM
To: keedoery
Cc: ross
Subject: RE: 2200W element explosion
Hi Kee,
I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying here. It was pretty clear the insulation broke down inside of the cord due to excessive temperature - not at the point where the cable was terminated (joins the element wires) because the faliure happened outside of the element. Furthermore, I would venture to say that this heat did indeed transmit through the wire from the element. The difference between these elements and a kettle is that the IEC power connector is not attached directly to the element which affords some thermal isolation, hence they can use a standard domestic temperature range PVC cable. But sure, lets say the insulation is all good and operating within it's acceptable temperature range on these elements (50 degrees tops right?) and for whatever reason something goes wrong and all of a sudden you've got another 30 degrees in the equation and you're up to 80 degrees and things start to melt. I just think you're cutting it a bit fine running a cable so close to it's maximum operating temperature - I certainly would not do this in the industrial electrical environment I work in because it would be asking for trouble. 180 degree C silicone cable is an obvious choice.
All this aside, it sounds like there have been some improvements made to these newer elements which is good because I am no longer willing to use the remaining two working ones for fear of personal injury / my house burning down.
I'll send the other two elements back to Ross if you could send me three new ones as soon as possible.
Thanks.
From: keedoeryTo: boneski
Subject: RE: 2200W element explosion
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 18:37:23 +1100
Hello,
If you send the other 2 units back to us we have no problem replacing all 3 of them. Normally returns would be handles by the retailer (in your case Craft Brewer).
The cords on the new elements are a heat resistant PVC with a fire retardant inside the encasing. The issue you had with the previous element is not due to the temperature resistance of the cord. Under normal operation the back of the element where the cord is mounted will not exceed 50C. The cord on the elements has a temperature rating of 72.5C. Beyond this temperature you would have to go to 180C in order for the PVC to start breaking down. This is the reason that various water heating devices (such as kettles) use the same lead.
Silicon leads are a common choice where the cord can come into direct contact with the heat source which is not possible if the heated part of the element is mounted to a vessel and submersed in liquid of some sort.
The issue that you had with the element in the past was not the cord, it was due to the terminals where the cord was joined to the back of the element. This is the place where the burn out has most likely occurred.
Please let me know if you are going to send the other two elements back or if you would just like us to send this single replacement unit to you.
Regards,
Kee Dry
Proprietor
Keg King Keg Dispense Specialists
http://www.kegking.com.au
From: boneski
Sent: Friday, 13 January 2012 3:36 PM
To: keedoey
Subject: RE: 2200W element explosion
Kee, thanks for responding and clafifying my questions on approvals etc.
Would I be right in saying that the cable has been upgraded to a silicone insulated, high temperature type?
As I mentioned in my original email, I have three of these elements in total and I think the other two are about to let go in the same way.
Are you able to replace all three?
Thanks.
From: keedoeryTo: boneski
Subject: RE: 2200W element explosion
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:15:23 +1100
Hello,
Sorry about that I though I had already replied to your email.
As I have discussed with Ross from craft brewer, we did get a number of elements that we received last year at approximately start of September. This batch of elements we saw a unusual rate of returns for exactly the same reason as you have described.
We have since resolved the issue and have more stock of much more reliable elements.
If you send me your street postal address I would be more than happy to send you a replacement in the mail.
With regards to the approvals, this item is classified as a component. Not an appliance. The Australian standard approvals is definitely required on all APPIANCES that use submersible elements. As this is a component it does not classify as an appliance and can only be called an appliance once installed to a vessel, it is not possible to get it approved as an appliance the way that it is sold. With that said, once you have finished installing the element into your boiler, this component then is classified as a boiler which is an appliance. Behind closed doors in the privacy of your own home you can use any electrical device you make at home with out approvals, however if you wanted to then sell your home made boiler second hand you would have to make sure it was made to suit AS60335.2.15 which is the Australian standards for Appliances for Heating Liquids.
Kee Dry
Proprietor
Keg King Keg Dispense Specialists
http://www.kegking.com.au
From: boneski
Sent: Friday, 13 January 2012 7:14 AM
To: keedoery
Cc: ross
Subject: FW: 2200W element explosion
Importance: High
Hi there,
I know you only returned to business on Tuesday, but can you please respond to this?
I'm looking to resolve this issue so I can return back to brewing ASAP.
Thanks,
boneski
From: boneskiTo: keedoery
CC: ross
Subject: 2200W element explosion
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 14:19:31 +1030
Mr. Doery,
I write to you on this matter after speaking with Ross at Craft Brewer, who recommended I communicate with your company directly.
On 9 November 2011 I purchased 3 of your 2200W elements from Craft Brewer.
These elements are used as one in my HLT and two in my kettle.
On initial receipt of these goods I noticed that the cable coming out of these elements seemed to be somewhat overly flexy, particularly at the point where the white insulation from the element meets the black cable. This situation had degraded over the last few brews even though particular care had been taken with this in mind.
During my 3rd AGB boil today in which I was using one element only on the kettle, I heard a loud "bang" about 1.5 mins before the end of the boil.
Inspection revealed there was a large blackened hole that had been blasted through the main outer cable sheath with plenty of carbon produced. See attached pictures.
I looked up the specification stamped on the cable (60227 IEC 53 - document also attached) and the part that stood out immediately was the maximum working temperature of the cable - 70 degrees centigrade. This is a general purpose domestic cable which is clearly unsuitable for this service environment and I can say with certainty that the manufacturers incorrect cable selection has caused this faliure.
Ross indicated that Keg King have had some ongoing problems with these elements, especially related to the cords. Using a silicone based cable with an appropriate temperature rating and revising the cable exit arrangement would go a long way to solving these problems. Either way, because of this cable issue, I've got one element that's blown up and another two that are definitely unreliable.
As an electrical tradesman I also deem these elements to be unsafe and as such, I highly doubt that this electrical apparatus complies with the AS/NZ electrical appliance safety standard and they most defintely do not comply with the marking / labelling practices contained within this standard. Further to this, I have also noticed that these elements lack EMC type approval labelling, or C-TICK approval as it's more commonly known and as far as I'm aware, all electrical appliances sold in Australia legally require this approval.
Obviously I'm looking for some sort of resoution here as I can't brew without heating, and without these elements I've just got some expensive stainless pots with 32mm holes drilled in them.
Ideed I am also seeking clarification on the current status of this products' AS/NZ electrical appliance safety certification and C-TICK type approval. I am genuinely concerned for the safety of others using these elements in the worthy and usually enjoyable pursuit of making beer.
I will be uncontactable during office hours on the mobile for the next two weeks starting tomorrow (Tuesday 3 January) so email is best.
Thanks in advance for your prompt reply.
Sincerely,
boneski
i bought a couple of 1" bsp screw in's and they arrived today
$26.60 +GST for 1 X 2400watt (bottom one)
$30.00 +GST for 1 X 3600 (i have a 15 amp line)
got them from here http://www.australianelementsupplies.com.au/
if you call in the mornings (she leaves after lunch) and ask for Leanne you will get this price if you ask nicely
She provided excellent service as well, both phone and internet response
yet to test them but will over the weekend
just thought i would re-post this into this thread and show the boil (it had just started) with the 2400w from today
i am pretty happy with them but do have one KK element in service in another vessel (till it pops )
pk.sax
RIP bum
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Maheel, Do these screw straight in to the hole?
http://www.australianelementsupplies.com.a...P-SCREW-IN-1888
http://www.australianelementsupplies.com.a...P-SCREW-IN-1888
troopa
Well-Known Member
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Im thinking ive gotta go back to this type of element
I do have a 3600W one but changed it out for a KK element because i was starting get concerned about melting things even with the power cranked back
And now the KK element is getting black crap on it after every brew
Disclaimer:
Last house i owned had 15amp, current place i rent and it only has 10 amp GPOs thats y i changed it out
I do have a 3600W one but changed it out for a KK element because i was starting get concerned about melting things even with the power cranked back
And now the KK element is getting black crap on it after every brew
Disclaimer:
Last house i owned had 15amp, current place i rent and it only has 10 amp GPOs thats y i changed it out
Re-posting or even forwarding on private emails - like you have done - is illegal in this country (go Australian laws).
Mate, I honestly hope someone with some direct evidence on these elements burning out does report them. With the amount that have been reported as failing leaving 240v wiring exposed/shorting out on here, in my opinion these are a safety concern. I think it would be great if some authority could check them out and let us know if we are safe to keep using them, or if there should be a product recall of them before someone gets hurt or possibly killed.
QldKev
Sounds very fair to me - you have had only 1 failure, but they are willing to replace all 3. All that you have to do is send them your address and your new elements will turn up.
Good way to allow the wholesaler to prove to you that their new design has resolved the problem.
DJR
I'm out
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Just my $0.02c
I have a new revision of the element that i used on the weekend - it was only just warm to the touch at the old cable junction that used to be quite warm and seemed to not have the excessive heat build up that I had with a previous revision. Happy so far and with a 3 year warranty for a $50 unit I think it is good that they have solved some of the issues with the previous revisions. The importer was quite responsive once I identified an issue with my unit which thankfully gave me plenty of warning before I had any larger safety issue.
I have a new revision of the element that i used on the weekend - it was only just warm to the touch at the old cable junction that used to be quite warm and seemed to not have the excessive heat build up that I had with a previous revision. Happy so far and with a 3 year warranty for a $50 unit I think it is good that they have solved some of the issues with the previous revisions. The importer was quite responsive once I identified an issue with my unit which thankfully gave me plenty of warning before I had any larger safety issue.
bonj
Premier Ipswich Mash Proponent (PIMP)
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Incorrect. All material in an email (or anything else, including these posts) is copyright of the author. Copyright is civil law, with only criminal ramifications for things like piracy.
In this case, the copyright owner (author) would have to defend the copyright themselves. If you fail to defend your copyright, you lose ownership of the work.
Sorry, but I don't beleive that is correct.
email is a written work that once created is copyright protected by the author, hence you cannot post in a public forum any e-mail sent to you privately without breaching the copyright laws. You cannot post private e-mails without the authors specific permission to do so.
Just because an email was sent to you as a private communication does not mean you then own it and can do with it what you like. Additionally, once the email has been posted to a public forum, it does not make it available for reposting, copying, or any other use. The author still retains the copyright and hence you need the express and written consent of the author.
Maltyfingers
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i've had 2 of the previous elements replaced under warranty.
the new one has just split the cord. now there is an exposed wire.
Please stop selling these things.
the new one has just split the cord. now there is an exposed wire.
Please stop selling these things.
bum
Not entitled to an opinion
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The author is clearly attributed in the "offending" posts - which is where a greater ethical issue arises, IMO, but that is by the by.
seemax
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Got my element replaced today at KK
I noticed the cord was floppy on the last brew, took a closer look and the insulation is frayed but the wires seem ok (for now!).
The new looks exactly the same...
Given it's running 10A for long periods, the problem could mostly be fixed by larger wire.
Think I might get myself a few of the uxcell elements.
I noticed the cord was floppy on the last brew, took a closer look and the insulation is frayed but the wires seem ok (for now!).
The new looks exactly the same...
Given it's running 10A for long periods, the problem could mostly be fixed by larger wire.
Think I might get myself a few of the uxcell elements.
Attachments
I noticed with two of mine (new last month, still unused) that the the outer black insulation comes easily out of the white plug just by flexing it. With the new one(s) it's not so much fraying of the insulation but that it was not long enough or held securely on the inside of the plug. I had one replaced and wrapped some duct-tape around the others so that they can't flex and put stress on the outer-insulation at that point.
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