Just how DO you get that juicy IPA taste and aroma?
- Thread starter Doctormcbrewdle
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SeeFar
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Much prefer War Hog.
If I can make a beer even close to that I'll be set.
If I can make a beer even close to that I'll be set.
goatchop41
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Anyway, back on topic...
@Doctormcbrewdle I'm going to be the one to step out and say it: you're not going to truly get the hop character that you're after (especially 'juiciness') with your current process.
The simple fact is that even if you can get it initially in the fermenter, the oxidisation is going to destroy it by the time that your bottles have carbed.
Every step is adding more O2 to dissolve in the beer - opening the fermenter to dry hop; racking to an open and unpurged bottling bucket/fermenter; bottling in to unpurged bottles (doesn't matter if you do the little tap thing and cap on foam, sure it's a little better, but it's still copping plenty of O2).
At every one of those stages, you're introducing O2 that will gradually oxidise the beer. The last 2 parts of the process are the worst - a completely open bottling bucket full of atmospheric O2, that is having beer slowly added to it and moving all through that O2 (even if you're not splashing/agitating).
I don't buy the line that everyone trots out of 'the yeast will consume the O2 in the bottle' - yes, over time as it carbonates the bottle it will, but that doesn't happen instantaneously and at that point O2 has already been contacting the beer throughout the packaging process, which has already started the oxidisation process.
Simple and plain - if you want that sort of hop character (and to maintain it), what you do early on to introduce those characteristics doesn't matter if you essentially shit on the whole process when it comes to packaging.
Kegging, closed transfers in to purged vessels, and +/- keg hopping are pretty much mandatory if you want to be able to keep your hard work in decent condition for more than one or two weeks...
@Doctormcbrewdle I'm going to be the one to step out and say it: you're not going to truly get the hop character that you're after (especially 'juiciness') with your current process.
The simple fact is that even if you can get it initially in the fermenter, the oxidisation is going to destroy it by the time that your bottles have carbed.
Every step is adding more O2 to dissolve in the beer - opening the fermenter to dry hop; racking to an open and unpurged bottling bucket/fermenter; bottling in to unpurged bottles (doesn't matter if you do the little tap thing and cap on foam, sure it's a little better, but it's still copping plenty of O2).
At every one of those stages, you're introducing O2 that will gradually oxidise the beer. The last 2 parts of the process are the worst - a completely open bottling bucket full of atmospheric O2, that is having beer slowly added to it and moving all through that O2 (even if you're not splashing/agitating).
I don't buy the line that everyone trots out of 'the yeast will consume the O2 in the bottle' - yes, over time as it carbonates the bottle it will, but that doesn't happen instantaneously and at that point O2 has already been contacting the beer throughout the packaging process, which has already started the oxidisation process.
Simple and plain - if you want that sort of hop character (and to maintain it), what you do early on to introduce those characteristics doesn't matter if you essentially shit on the whole process when it comes to packaging.
Kegging, closed transfers in to purged vessels, and +/- keg hopping are pretty much mandatory if you want to be able to keep your hard work in decent condition for more than one or two weeks...
All of the above, but even before that, some decent sensory training will be required. Reading through the thread, I hear buzzword bingo and see someone latching onto the first plausible explanation as if it was a silver bullet.
It's much easier to fix things if you have the means to identify the specific faults.
It's much easier to fix things if you have the means to identify the specific faults.
Doctormcbrewdle
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I agree with the hypothesis at this point in time, but am also holding out for a few more weeks to see how this experiment actually goes. I'll keg if I have to, but I'll know very soon if I really do
I was just thinking, my new fermentation chest freezer absolutely wreaks of co2 when I open the lid. I think I'm actually safe to cold crash if I don't open this the whole fermentation.. the cooling will just suck co2 back. Just a thought
I was just thinking, my new fermentation chest freezer absolutely wreaks of co2 when I open the lid. I think I'm actually safe to cold crash if I don't open this the whole fermentation.. the cooling will just suck co2 back. Just a thought
Doctormcbrewdle
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I'm one of those people who just can't really see anything great about it. It's easy for a home brewer to emulate because I do it all the time through mistake hence why I created this thread! (Laughs) I guess it is a nice beer, just the grass is always greener (I'll be happy when I pump out a Pirate Life)
When they say 'explodes with citrus flavour' it really doesn't. It's sitting in the oxidised background. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's uniquely different to many beers and beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder. I've never been one to take sides, everything is good in it's place
When I think exploding citrus I think something like a Holgate XPA
Jack of all biers
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Your fermentation freezer reeks of CO2? You mean fermented wort. The CO2 from your fermentation does not neatly fill your freezer with CO2, expelling all other gases. All the gases mix and fairly evenly. The CO2 does not just drop to the bottom. Even if you have no fan to move the air around, the movement of CO2 from the airlock or gladwrap or whatever will mix the gases fairly evenly. Even if it managed to dilute the air space in your freezer by half you would still have an atmosphere of 10.5% O2.
It JUST DOESN'T WORK that way.
Doctormcbrewdle
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Nice of you to let me know, Sir
How bout I DON'T do that then. Ok
How bout I DON'T do that then. Ok
Jack of all biers
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Sorry, capitals were over the top. It wasn't just aimed at you. This myth of a CO2 blanket/CO2 sinking below other gases (O2) seems to persist no matter how many times it is refuted. Even blankets allow air to pass through them! Sometimes hot air, so excuse mine.
Doctormcbrewdle
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Excused. I see where you're coming from
Hez
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hoppy beer produces that hot air under your blanket...
goatchop41
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Your constant reference to oxidised character in Hop Hog makes one think that you haven't experienced a fresh, well-handled bottle (or fresh keg), but merely a mishandled, past its prime bottle from Dans/BWS/etc.
You wouldn't be talking about oxidisation in a HH if you had a good example of it, just like every other beer in existence...
goatchop41
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In all seriousness though, if you squirt some CO2 directly over the wort surface, the fabled 'blanket' does actually exist for a short period of time (minutes), prior to the mixing of the gases in the headspace (but certainly not indefinitely, as most homebrewers would have us believe).
Doctormcbrewdle
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Does direct from the factory count? Like I said, the first one (pre complaint to the company) was horrifically old. They sent me a 4 pack direct from the factory so it would be 'fresh'
I like it and all but look man, it's no Pirate Life
I like it and all but look man, it's no Pirate Life
This doesn't stack up to me. PL make delicious beers but Feral were doing something very similar a decade before them. Hop Hog is a deliciously bright citrus-forward IPA when it's not tainted.
Garfield
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Minutes?! Geez what's even the point in that case?
goatchop41
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CJW
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Ever farted in bed? Gasses can permeate the blankets.
Lyrebird_Cycles
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True that.
I happen to be doing some work on this for another application (ullaged wine tanks) and the speed at which oxygen diffuses through an inert gas "blanket" is surprisingly high. Even if you could get your "blanket" to be a metre thick it will be effective for about an hour.
There's a good paper on the subject at this link: http://docs.dunescience.org/cgi-bin/RetrieveFile?docid=1798&filename=diffusion.docx&version=1 warning it's a download not a pdf
