Just how DO you get that juicy IPA taste and aroma?

[Markbeer]

For me its about eliminating the oxygen in the headspace. Transfer with no oxygen pickup to a bottle with none in it. I've heard of oxygen absorbing caps but could be a gimmick.

I'm struggling to understand how if you're careful not to splash and transfer underneath the liquid without oxygen how any oxygen above the surface of beer for an hour or so at bottling time can absorb problematic anounts of oxygen?

I can understand this easily occurring inside a bottle as beer ferments and carbs, reabsorbing the headspace but not before this. Am I wrong? If so, how?

 

[Jack of all biers]

You could be right, maybe it's something else going on. When I switched to lactic I lost some fruitiness.

I know Charlie papazian adds ascorbic to his beer though so is it worth a try?

If you used citric prior to your switch to lactic, then that would explain a noticeable lowering of the fruity flavours. Because citric acid adds fruity flavours itself.

It would have almost zero to do with any anti-oxidant affect of citric acid.

How much, at what stage and how does he recommend adding ascorbic acid to the beer?

 

[husky]

I've canned and bottled at two micros - both have already had the beer carbed and hopped in tanks. The bottles/cans are purged with co2 then filled and capped (possibly with a little injection of c02 to top it off - can't remember) on a foamy head.

I met a guy the other day who used to work at Gage Roads in the early years, he said they worked out that a shot of hot water (not sure of temp and amount) was used just before capping the bottles...but again this is carbed beer going into bottles not uncarbed and sugar

sorry - prolly not that helpful but maybe an insight into at least a couple of micros and how they go about it

Most of the micro bottlers I have seen pull vacuum then charge with CO2 up to 5 times prior to filling. Even still their IPA's are better from a keg which they say is the oxygen pick up even when capping on foam. O2 is the enemy at packaging and what I have put the bulk of my time into lately as far as brewery process changes. Starting to see results justifying the additional work.

 

[Markbeer]

It's in one of his books. I can't recall when or how much. Jamil talked about it as well.

As an aside he also mentioned, completely off topic, that he dips all his bottle ends after capping in wax. Nothing to do with oxygenation but could just be habit like the ascorbic acid addition.

If you used citric prior to your switch to lactic, then that would explain a noticeable lowering of the fruity flavours. Because citric acid adds fruity flavours itself.

It would have almost zero to do with any anti-oxidant affect of citric acid.

How much, at what stage and how does he recommend adding ascorbic acid to the beer?

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Most of the micro bottlers I have seen pull vacuum then charge with CO2 up to 5 times prior to filling.

Five times? Really? Why wouldn't you just buy a bottling line that actually works?

 

[husky]

Five times? Really? Why wouldn't you just buy a bottling line that actually works?

$$$$$
This one was 2 head @ $20k, a good one would be 5 x that and when you are starting out not really justifiable.

 

[SixStar]

Right water, Conan yeast, try to find the heady topper clone online, I’ve had lots of heady and it’s pretty close. That will rock ya.

 

[Schikitar]

Curious, if oxygen is the enemy of hop aroma/flavour then doesn't oxygenating your wort before fermentation then negate/impact all those late additions?

 

[Doctormcbrewdle]

No. Only oxidation post fermentation

 

[mtb]

Curious, if oxygen is the enemy of hop aroma/flavour then doesn't oxygenating your wort before fermentation then negate/impact all those late additions?

Probably. But the benefits outweigh the negatives.

 

[Hez]

Hi, I''m in the same situation. I've tried to make 5 different IPA style hoppy beers which turned out being pretty good but never as hoppy as I wanted. I do BIAB, I bottle and I do:
- big 0' additions at 80ºC for 30' before chilling
- use an immersion chiller
- ph control with lactic acid (mash and sparge)
- salts additions (mash, sparge and boil "for seasoning")
- dry hopping with multiple socks (to try to maximize the contact of the hops with the beer) using weight to keep them submerged

I prime the bottles with table sugar individually and I use a wand for filling the bottles straight from THE fermenter (one and only, the fermenter tap/spiggot is always above the level of the trub) from the bottom, so the beer is almost not-in-contact with the air.

Las time, I washed my hands thoroughly, sprayed them with sanitizer, let them dry and I squeezed the hop shocks inside the fermenter. Still not hoppy enough.

For my next one (https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/biab-american-pale-ale-extra-hoppy.97202/#post-1490593) I will (on top of the ph control, salts, chilling, etc.):
- use Citra and Amarillo hops instead of a single hop
- use one hop shock for the 60' addition, another for the 10' and two more for the 0' instead of filling the hop spider with all the hops
- 4.7g/L at 0'
- squeeze the shit out of the shocks after chilling (sanitized hands)
- start dry hopping after 5 days or fermentation complete without hop shocks
- 8.8g/L dry hop: half for 7 days, the other half for 4 days.
- cold crash for 24h to 3ºC before bottling <- I have a fermentation fridge at last!
- fill all bottles, put the caps on top and then start to bottle (instead of fill and cap right away) as told in a previous post

If that doesn't work, next time I will thorw the hops directly into the pot and I will try the whirpool-and-syphon (my kettle doesn't have a tap/spiggot). On top of that I will make a hop infusion in boiled water (steep 10g/L, 5' at 90ºC, then cool quickly to room temp before priming) with the priming sugar and I will prime the bottles with this syrup instead of only the sugar.

If this doesn't work, I will stop trying to make hoppy beers until I have kegs :S
...there's plenty of fish in the sea.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Curious, if oxygen is the enemy of hop aroma/flavour then doesn't oxygenating your wort before fermentation then negate/impact all those late additions?

I think you will find the oxygen will be taken up by the yeast before any oxidisation occurs I have read 20 to 30 minutes for the yeast to utilise the yeast.

 

[mtb]

- 4.7g/L at 0'
- 8.8g/L dry hop

Lordy that's a lot of hops. If there's one way to justify kegging from a monetary perspective it's that you'd use about 1/3 the amount to get the same aroma.. and hops ain't cheap, big saving there.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Curious, if oxygen is the enemy of hop aroma/flavour then doesn't oxygenating your wort before fermentation then negate/impact all those late additions?

Firstly, as WEL says if you manage your oxygenation properly there is a very short window in which there is measurable DO2 before the yeast takes it up*. Secondly, as Dr McBrewdle says, post fermentation oxidation is much more important.

Why?

The oxidation of terpenes and terpene alcohols is mediated by the hydroxyethyl radical, itself formed from ethanol during post fermentation oxidation. See for instance Almeida et al "Mechanism of hop derived terpenes oxidation in beer". No ethanol -> no hydroxyethyl radical -> limited hop oxidation.

In addition, hop derived terpenes are subject to biotransformation during fermentation and these transformed compounds are important for hop aromas**. On the other hand, the reaction rates for oxidation of terpinolene, beta farnesene and alpha humulene (likely to be present from dry hopping) are much higher ( x 30) than those for say terpineol and citronellol (produced from biotransformation of hop compounds).



* Logically, the slower you add the oxygen in the presence of yeast the less DO2 will be available for side reactions. Yes, that's a blatant plug for my oxygenator.

** Which is one reason I prefer to "dry hop" when there is some yeast activity: I prefer the biotransformed flavours and aromas to raw hoppiness.

 

[Schikitar]

** Which is one reason I prefer to "dry hop" when there is some yeast activity: I prefer the biotransformed flavours and aromas to raw hoppiness.

Ah yes, interesting.. thanks for the too-technical-for-my-brain response, I get the gist of it!

 

[Hez]

Lordy that's a lot of hops. If there's one way to justify kegging from a monetary perspective it's that you'd use about 1/3 the amount to get the same aroma.. and hops ain't cheap, big saving there.

Well, I do "half batches" (10L), I've calculated that this batch will cost me 1.10$ a bottle (water, gas, electricity and labour not included). Good enough for me... in fact I've calculated that with my 9th batch I already paid for all my brewing equipment:
9 batches * 10L/batch = 270 33cl bottles.
1 commercial good beer = 4$ (average) -> 270 bottles * 4$ = 1080$
1 home made beer = 1$ (average) -> 270 bottles * 1$ = 270$

I read a post in which someone had calculated the cost of electricity, water and gas together to produce a 20L batch in Sydney and I don't remember exactly, but being very generous lets say 10$, so in rough numbers...

1080$ (commecial beer equivalent cost)
- 270$ (grain + hops + yeast)
- 90$ (water + gas + electricity)
- 600$ (my brewing equipment cost so far)
= 120$ savings!!!

I don't count the labour because that's the fun.

With the humongous taxes you have over alcohol in this country, homebrewing is a very good way of saving money!
Well, not drinking beer would be better for your wallet and your liver, but sad for you. ;P

 

[mtb]

Home brewing is undoubtedly cheaper than commercial, and cheap in general. I'm simply saying it can be cheaper again.

 

[Hez]

Home brewing is undoubtedly cheaper than commercial, and cheap in general. I'm simply saying it can be cheaper again.

Yep, absolutely, but the initial inversion is bigger and the rentability is at a longer term. If I was to stay in Australia indefinitely (and I had the room) I would buy the kegs and everything!

 

[Dave70]

If there's one thing I changed that really ramped up the hop "juiciness" in my IPAs, it was ditching the hop spider / hop sock / whatever else people use to separate hop matter from their wort. Hop matter goes straight into the boil and I recirculate throughout the final 30min of the boil with a pump; this sanitises the pump and mixes the batch for maximum exposure of hop matter to wort. The difference it made is phenomenal.

As for keeping that freeballing hop matter in the kettle and out of my fermenters - it's as easy as standing the wort for 30min after reaching groundwater temp and removing the immersion chiller. Hop matter settles to the bottom, below my outlet valve. I then transfer to FV with the pump, no movement of the kettle involved. I put the lid on at this stage to prevent contamination as obviously it's at prime risk for infection - but I haven't had an infection yet *touch wood*

Yep. Only use mine these days where hops really arent the star of the show.

 

[Grogler]

If there's one thing I changed that really ramped up the hop "juiciness" in my IPAs, it was ditching the hop spider / hop sock / whatever else people use to separate hop matter from their wort. Hop matter goes straight into the boil and I recirculate throughout the final 30min of the boil with a pump; this sanitises the pump and mixes the batch for maximum exposure of hop matter to wort. The difference it made is phenomenal.

As for keeping that freeballing hop matter in the kettle and out of my fermenters - it's as easy as standing the wort for 30min after reaching groundwater temp and removing the immersion chiller. Hop matter settles to the bottom, below my outlet valve. I then transfer to FV with the pump, no movement of the kettle involved. I put the lid on at this stage to prevent contamination as obviously it's at prime risk for infection - but I haven't had an infection yet *touch wood*

Are you able to reharvest yeast cleanly with this method? I follow the same procedure you outlined but usually the yeast I collect has some hop matter buried in it ( compare the Hazy Pale Ale harvest with the hefeweizen harvest in the picture). It may be I simply need to give more time for the hops to settle out post boil before racking to fermenter.