Is There A Simple Solution To Networking Your Home?

[PistolPatch]

Just had a top mate around here tonight who is about to build a house. I'm just wondering, seeing as there are so many IT guys on AHB, if anyone could lead him (and me) in the right direction.

I just spent about 3 hours researching this on the net and all that I found is in a foreign language. All I read from Microsoft is the word, "extender!" WTF? How much does one cost? I can't even find a price on an XBox 360 they recommend. It's either less than $50 or more than $400!

Just in case you think I have been bludging and haven't spent enough time researching, I'll attach a copy of the email I sent to my mate with my conclusions below.

Would really appreciate some advice or direction to an appropriate forum.

Thanks,
PP

Attached Email: It's a long read and is only to prove the fact that I have done quite some work so don't feel obliged to read further ...

Latch,

Interesting little problem you have posed here.

Ive had a look at quite a few sites. One conclusion is that you should seriously consider wiring your new house. Very cheap to do so when building and will probably become standard in a few years. Doing it later would cost a bomb Id imagine. Have a look at this article.

Microsoft has some, as usual, vague information. Have a read here.

Then click Learn More. There are 4 pages. Page 4 seems to be the most interesting one. At the bottom of that page, click on the, Learn more about setting up Extenders for Windows.... Looks like you need a router and an extender for each room. God knows what these are or how much they cost??? This page here shows the companies that make the extenders or you can use an Xbox 360 instead. What the f*1# is that? Alex will know! I cant even find a price on these???

You could try searching more on wired and wireless home networks, though I have spent a while on it tonight and havent found anything brilliant so far apart from the first link I gave you. All seems nice and confusing!

Its been interesting having a look at this. Off the top of my head and after very little research, I reckon...

Generally...

1. Seeing as you are building from scratch, find out how much extra it costs to run an additional wire (as in computer networking wire) to a power point. A power point is the only place you need these cables as extenders etc, all require power. If it doesnt cost much extra, it might be worth running cabling to many power points or ensuring that this can easily be done in the future.
2. Find out if there are power point panels that accommodate both electrical and cables. You and I are both used to having a separate panel for TV and electricity. Do they combine electricity with computer cable outlets these days?
3. I reckon wireless is going to become old technology or will always be much more expensive. As mentioned, all new homes will probably very shortly be all wired and therefore will attract the greatest technology. I cant see wireless ever becoming superior to a wired cable.
4. I also reckon that single components such as DVD players, digital tuners, stereos, amplifiers etc, are going to rapidly be replaced (say 7 years) totally by computer technology. As you saw this arvo, using a mouse is a lot easier than 5 remote controls and already a lot cheaper. So, if you are building, get ahead now and think a wired network.

More Specifically for You...

You mentioned youd like to have music in several rooms. The problem is controlling the music without having to walk to the room where the music is based i.e. your lounge room. Sort of defeats the purpose if you cant control it from the room where you are listening as you might as well have a CD/MP3 player in each room and take your favourite disc with you!

The only solution to this I have seen so far, and Im not entirely happy with it, is....

You have a TV plus extender in every room where you want to individually control music (or, since youll be wired, TV and Video.)

This does have considerable advantages. You can watch AND control TV, music or video from that room as all extenders have a remote control. Also, someone else can do the same simultaneously in another room.

BUT, you do need some sort of TV and controller in each room. This might be costly (although I think probably cheaper and certainly less confusing than some of the music only systems I saw tonight.) And, it could possibly be quite invasive personally having a TV hanging over your head all the time. Lets face it, youve only been married a few months now. You have to consider if, in a years time, Jane will find an episode of, Desperate Housewives, more interesting than you. Whilst this will not seem possible now, remember that women often find next weeks haircut a lot more exciting than anything we can scrounge up. Mmmmm.

My final worry on this solution is speaker quality and placement. For example you can get speakers cut in the roof while you are building but what quality will they be and how will you control them? The alternative is having nice speakers such as the TDK ones attached to, if necessary, your TV, but where will you place them and their wires?

So mate, its been an interesting exercise and Im keen to see what the answer is. Personally, I need a good wireless TV/Video solution. Can see this being of benefit to Mum and Dad as well so Ill keep investigating.

Spot ya Latch,
Patch

 

[redbeard]

Its a lot cheaper to get a new house wired up than refit it. Use cat 5e or cat6. Put 1 or 2 outlets in each room, going back to a central patch panel with a network switch. if your really keen, you could also use a socket for for speakers with an appropriate wired cable. Not sure that I would run the cables to close to the 240v ones. There's no easy answer for the remotes.

cheers

 

[HKS]

If you want to run at the fastest speed 1000Mbit, then run cat 6 throughout the home. It doesn't cost much and is easy to do when building a new home. Have all the cables run into a cupboard somewhere as well as the phone line and attach all those to a modem/router/gateway.

Or you could just get a wireless modem/router/gateway and job done.

 

[bonj]

If he wants a wired network, have the sparky install conduit in most of the rooms. It's cheap as... I should have done more rooms than I did. It's the cabling that costs alot. It's much easier to put conduit in with draw wires than trying to wire after the walls are plastered.

As HKS says, have all the wiring running to a central wiring closet (I used the cupboard in an unused bedroom). That way you can put hubs/switches/routers in one place. Put a phone line in there too. The builder looked at me strangely when I said I wanted the only phone line in the cupboard of the 3rd bedroom :lol: but it puts your modem/router with all your other equipment.

If you can get the cost included in your loan, wire the whole house now. It hurts to do it after. I have conduit in my walls, but only one cat5e length run because there are too many other things competing for money (brewing ingredients/brewing equipment etc...).

Put two conduit runs behind the TV. the conduit is surprisingly thin, and if you want audio wires run too, you'll be pleased to did it.

Wireless networking will never go out of fashion. It's just too easy, especially for portable devices like laptops and palm-pilot thingies.

I have wireless too, and it rocks. There's nothing better than being able to sit on the lounge with a laptop totally wire free and still having network access. The latest wireless is competitive with 10/100 wired in terms of throughput. Wired will always be faster because you don't have the same issue of sharing... especially in star topography networks. Even in bus topography, like 10base2, which no-one uses anymore anyway, it is much simpler to do the collision detection than in wireless networks.

I personally use 10/100 (802.3) wired for my media centre and file server PCs, and 802.11g (56mbit) wireless for my laptops. The wireless access point links the wireless to the wired through my router/file server/firewall.

edit: wireless info.

 

[bonj]

The multiple remote control issue is easily solved with a Logitech Harmony universal remote. They're computer programmable. I've replaced the remotes for my AV receiver, TV, MythTV media centre PC, DVD recorder and standalone digital PVR with a single Harmony 525 remote (RRP $199, can be found for half that). I can't recommend these remotes enough. Totally awesome. Say I'm watching a DVD, and want to watch TV through the MythTV box, I just hit the "Activities" button, press the button next to "MythTV" and the remote turns off unneeded components, turns on needed equipment, switches the TV and receiver to the correct inputs and you're ready to rock. And one single power button to turn everything off. You can even tell it to leave certain components (PVR/media centre PC) on all the time.

edit:
Media Centre PCs:

They're fantastic, but not for everyone. Using MythTV, you can have multiple frontends connected to a single (or multiple) backends. This means that a central media centre PC in your home theatre cabinet can serve media to frontend PCs in multiple rooms. I have MythTV frontend installed on my laptop and can seamlessly stream SD digital TV across the wireless network with no lag or glitches, even while the backend is also recording one program and displaying another program on the main TV. It can also play music on one, TV on another etc... totally brilliant, but unfortunately, not ready for non-geek "plug and play" yet. Every now and then I still have to manually rebuild a seektable or two, and initial installation has a learning curve for the uninitiated. But, if you have a linux geek around, they should be able to sort it out for you.

 

[bonj]

Sorry, just noticed this:

Don't run network cables to power points. They should ideally be run at least 1 metre away from power cabling if running parallel, and if crossing, should cross at a right angle to the power cables. This minimises network interference from the power cables. In practice, you can get away with a smaller distance, but know that it will slow down the network even though it may not be noticeable.

Mine are closer than 1m because my sparky was a dipshit and ignored my instructions.

 

[PistolPatch]

Hey thank you guys for the excellent info above :super: A lot of good tips there which I'll forward on.

With cupboards and routers and hubs, it all sounds a bit complicated. Does anyone know of companies that specialise in this sort of thing or does someone here in Perth want to give him a quote?

For myself, I have Windows Media Centre in my main room and was wondering if anyone knows how expensive it is to link it up to a TV in another room wirelessly? I don't need an Xbox (not that there's currently much else to play with in my bedroom ) so am hoping that there is a cheaper sort of ''extender,'' etc. And, can wireless do TV well enough?

Many thanks again guys! (Top essay Bonj )

 

[bonj]

Hey thank you guys for the excellent info above :super: A lot of good tips there which I'll forward on.

With cupboards and routers and hubs, it all sounds a bit complicated. Does anyone know of companies that specialise in this sort of thing or does someone here in Perth want to give him a quote?

For myself, I have Windows Media Centre in my main room and was wondering if anyone knows how expensive it is to link it up to a TV in another room wirelessly? I don't need an Xbox (not that there's currently much else to play with in my bedroom ) so am hoping that there is a cheaper sort of ''extender,'' etc. And, can wireless do TV well enough?

That really depends on how you connect your PC to your TV. If you use component/HDMI/VGA, things get a little tricky. If it's a simple s-video or composite (red, yellow, white RGB plugs), then a wireless extender can be had from somewhere like Jaycar (product code: AR1844) for around $70. If there are brick walls between transmitter and receiver, you may have issues.

I don't know much about the Microsoft stuff, but it sounds like the xbox is acting like a frontend similar to the MythTV solution I was going on about above. That seems to be the best way to use a component/HDMI/VGA connection in another room, but the cost is high ($530). The PlayStation 3 will apparently also find "media servers" which are uPNP based on the network, so they are a possible alternative, but more expensive ($680). My PS3 won't find my media servers because they don't do upnp, but it's sitting next to the media centre pc anyway, so that part is irrelevent for me.

Hope some of that helps you

Many thanks again guys! (Top essay Bonj )

I am but an apprentice

 

[tangent]

get a mac, turn it on, it works

 

[sah]

PP if your mate just wants network access for laptop or desktop computers wireless is the go. The most common wireless routers run at 54 Mbs with the next standard at 248 Mbs. For a couple of hundred dollars you can buy an ADSL modem with an inbuilt wireless routers and voice (voip) gateway.

If you mate isn't sure want he wants just now, perhaps he could just make it easier to pull cables later. I recommend drilling through wall frame noggins in likely locations from the top to the bottom of the frame and through the floor plate. Run some thin nylon cord through and tape to the top and bottom to use as a draw line if ever required.

regards,
Scott

 

[PistolPatch]

I am but an apprentice tongue.gif

LOL Bonj and thanks very much SAH :icon_cheers: Tangent, I have no Mac Keen on Linux though - often explore that and would love to ditch MS but there is one program I use heaps that isn't supported.

Bonj: Windows Media Center is the equivalent of MythTV. (Missed your edit about MythTV until now sorry.) The Jaycar thingo is good to know but that will only give me a virtual TV antenna socket from what I gather??? I'd like to be able to watch TV that I record in a second room as cutting the DVD's takes hours, or if it is a two hour movie I can't even cut it - perhaps I should change my record settings.

So far I can't see a cheap way of doing this apart from moving into your house Bonj. Would that be OK? (Bonj, not sure if it helps you to help me but I have a Hauppage Dual Digital Tuner card in my main PC.)

Also, I love the way Microsoft says it is so easy (when they say easy I, the consumer, also interpret this as being inexpensive) to put an extender in each room and simply access everything. Today I learned, unless I have missed something, that these extenders costs as much as a basic computer so why wouldn't I just throw another computer in my second room??? I'd also probably get to enjoy only twice the problems that Vista already causes me - lol! I do have a second computer so maybe I should consider that???

SAH: Top post. Being a tradey I can understand terminology such as noggins etc. Super! This is great practical, inexpensive advice and thanks to the others above who gave similiar. Though I have no idea what VOIP means it is good to know it is only $200! SAH, if I had that router thingo, would you know how much it would cost to whack whatever you need in the receiving computer? Do you reckon it would handle TV? (Proper terminology is probably video or something!)

Going to ponder all this a little more but all the above has been very illuminating and your time is very much appreciated.

My mate Latch is slightly more economical with words. Here is his reply to my email of last night...

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese, you have done some homework!! Senx Mate. Will dig deeper, but this is a great start.

Latch Despatch

Oh, the Latch Despatch thing is an ongoing rhyming joke that none of you will understand. You get that!

Spot/thanks a heap!

 

[bonj]

Hey Pat,

The Jaycar extenders don't deal with the main antenna at all. They plug into the video output of your TV/VCR/media centre and then into the input of your other TV. All they do is transmit and receive the video and audio that you send into them. If you have multiple things like a VCR, DVD player, media centre then you also need some way of switching between these inputs... either by removing and plugging in cables (pain in the arse) or via either a simple AV switch, or an AV receiver/amp (like the Sony etc surround sound amps). You may get lucky and have an output on your TV, which negates the need for the switch. But that may also mean that you have to have both TV's on...

They sure do make all this complicated don't they?

-Ben

 

[crozdog]

Patt,

2 options are wired & wireless. I recommend your mate installs both. Why? Wireless gives you reasonable access speed anywhere (make sure you secure it) but isn't real good for streaming movies. Wired gives you access to fixed line phones (ie you regular phone - not voip) & provides you ability to stream across a dedicated link; higher speeds are also possible on a wired network.

If it was me, I'd wire diagnoally opposite sides of each room with 2 x CAT5e (or CAT 6) cables terminated on RJ45 outlets and an RG6 coax cable wired onto an F connector. Why diagonally opposite? People - especially wives love to rearrange furniture. having outlets on opposite sides gives you flexibility.

All cabling runs back to a central point like previously mentioned (ie star wired). The cost of doing this all at build time is negligible and provides great flexibility ie RJ's can be used for LAN/Phone/audio distribution & the coax can be used for TV and video distribution. You can get wall plates which have RJ45's & F connectors.

more info including contractors
http://www.smartwiredhouse.com.au/
http://www.smartcabling.com.au/
http://www.lexcom.com.au/pdfs/lexcom_tech_brochure.pdf

There are smart audio distribution systems around, but they do cost ;-)

 

[MVZOOM]

I personally can't see the point of running CAT6 or any cabling through the entire house. Given the abilities and cost of the next gen wireless stuff, as well as the cost of routers etc, I just can't see any point.

If there is need for absolutely high speed access (ie.. running CAD / Graphic design / video authoring etc from a SAN or large storage device), it will generally be in one place, ie.. the office. Or at worst, the office with a remote server / storage. If this is the case, a single simple CAT6 link works well.

You need to figure out what you actually want to use the network for and provision accordingly. If you intend to run CBUS or similar, that's a different story - however in saying that, I reckon next gen CBUS will be wireless, for retro-fitability.

Just my two cents - I've had wireless througout my last 2 houses and have never wanted for a RJ45 port...

Cheers -Mike

 

[sah]

SAH: Top post. Being a tradey I can understand terminology such as noggins etc. Super! This is great practical, inexpensive advice and thanks to the others above who gave similiar. Though I have no idea what VOIP means it is good to know it is only $200! SAH, if I had that router thingo, would you know how much it would cost to whack whatever you need in the receiving computer? Do you reckon it would handle TV? (Proper terminology is probably video or something!)

VOIP is voice over IP and it can be used to make telephone calls using your broadband internet service rather than the normal public switched telephone network (PSTN). There tend to be big cost advantages with this route depending on your calll patterns. For example, it gives me 18c untimed flat rate national calls, 5c/min international calls with no flag fall. There are lots of providers of different quality and cost.

The router thingo I was talking about is the device that you need if you are going to get an ADSL broadband service. You can get a very cheap and basic one that plugs into one computer or you can get them with combinations of multiple LAN ports, wireless and voice gateway.

This kit has nothing to do with TV. If you were to use this style of network for TV you'd have to have other devices like a computer that use other protocols on top of IP. The dedicated devices are probably the way to go in this area.

regards,
Scott

 

[bonj]

Mike, I agree with you about the wireless except for in this case. A current wireless network (54mbit 802.11g) will only handle 1 SD stream. In some cases, not even that. For the specific purpose of distributing audiovisual content around the house, wired is the way to go. At the very least, you wouldn't regret wiring for the main TV, and the bedrooms... even if it's just preparing for later wiring by either using conduit or just drilling suitable holes in the noggins.

 

[chovain]

I personally can't see the point of running CAT6 or any cabling through the entire house. Given the abilities and cost of the next gen wireless stuff, as well as the cost of routers etc, I just can't see any point.

(Disclaimer: I used to design wireless devices for enterprise environments)

Each generation of wireless technology gets further and further from fulfilling it's promises. For example, 54Mbps will only get about 15Mb between two rooms with a 10m air-gap and a single-brick wall between. As the speed of the wireless increases, the conditions under which the technology will achieve that speed become tighter (there's a really good physical reason for that).

As Bonj points out, 11g can't typically do HD. The next generation (802.11n) will not be released until mid-next year (ok - some companies are already selling equipment that complies with the draft, but the standard won't be finalised until November, so you better hope you're willing to stick with your supplier). Although the IT world is abuzz with talk of 248Mb, you're only going to get that speed if the devices are in the same small room, in which case you might as well wire them. The standard itself says to expect 74Mb in typical installations. While that's technically able to carry the 25Mb required for HDTV, it's cutting it awfully fine (and there are other reasons why you need significantly more bandwidth than the stream to stream data), so you're not going to get a good quality stream (you're likely to get artefacts and dropped frames every few seconds).

Wireless is great for low bandwidth applications. It will always suck once you and your neighbours all have multiple devices all trying to talk over each other.

Furthermore, many people are dropping 100Mbps network connections because it's too damn slow for data transfers. As time goes on, multi-gig file transfers will become more common in the home (I already do them from time to time). They'd be painful over 100Mbps, let alone 74.

Lastly, in 10 years or so, when broadband connections are outperforming wireless networks (they will), and GbE feels slow (it will), the people who cabled their new houses *properly* (with conduits and a central patch panel) will be laughing as they replace their infrastructure for a song.

 

[crozdog]

I personally can't see the point of running CAT6 or any cabling through the entire house. Given the abilities and cost of the next gen wireless stuff, as well as the cost of routers etc, I just can't see any point.

If there is need for absolutely high speed access (ie.. running CAD / Graphic design / video authoring etc from a SAN or large storage device), it will generally be in one place, ie.. the office. Or at worst, the office with a remote server / storage. If this is the case, a single simple CAT6 link works well.
Cheers -Mike

Mike, Sorry but I disagree. Many homes now have terrabytes of storage on PC's or NAS devices which is frequently used for storing media files. This storage is usually in the office or central wiring closet. Users of that media are dispersed throughout the house. I know I don't want to watch movies on a small PC screen when I can watch them on a big flat screen in the comfort of the lounge with friends & family. If you have ever tried to watch a movie streamed or accessed via a LAN share over an 802.11g wireless link - especially when other traffic is using that link & had to put up with choppyness / pauses jumping, you will know the benefit of having a dedicated copper cable.

In addition, not everything runs over copper twisted pair eg you will need RG6 coax if you want TV's or FOXTEL in more than 1 location (MATV), unless you use buy media converters - which can cost more than the coax would, or pay a fortune for wireless extension devices. Also traditional PSTN doesn't run over wireless (not counting DECT) - it needs hard wires.

The cost of installing cabling everywhere is quite low - eg 305m of cat5e will set you back around $180. A patch panel, patch cables & outlets add a bit more + installation fees if you don't DIY. This cost is small compared to the cost of the house & adds value if you want to resell later.

You need to figure out what you actually want to use the network for and provision accordingly.

I totally agree. Requirements are always the 1st point of any project, and are often overlooked in the "desire" to have the "latest & greatest". I put next gen in that category. 3G networks at this point are expensive commercial realities which tie you a supplier eg Telstra's nextG, cause they paid squillions for the rights to a frequency allocation. But I want control of my own destiny, not be forced to do/watch what others want me to do/see at an inflated price.

In my view that requires a house to access to a variety of technologies including twisted pair, coax & wireless, all of which are fairly cheap in the scheme of things, but need to be deployed to fit the individual(s) needs. This may mean that certain technologies are deployed in some areas and not others. An example is when I helped my brother wire his house - he didn't want COAX in the kids bedrooms for TV, so we didn't install any.

Cable is low tech and once installed rarely breaks unlike end point devices like wireless access points which can cost a lot/break and be replaced by newer technology (almost guaranteed to happen the day after you buy something). To my mind fixed cabling provides a lot of flexibility over the long term.

Anyway, thats my $0.02

 

[HKS]

You can get away with wireless for net access (for now). But file transfer is a completely different kettle of fish.

As was said even wired 100Mbit is painful for transferring large amounts of data, read gigabytes. I'm sure most of us here have all said "gee this hard drive is so big I will never ever fill it up" I'm sure we all know that wasn't true and will likely never be true.

If you look towards the future. Storage capacity is getting larger and larger. File sizes are getting larger and larger. We keep wanting to store more and more data. The problem comes when you want to move or share that data. That's where the only option in my view is wired for data transfer. Unless you have plenty of time on your hands.

To give you an idea. If I'm asked to transfer data from a clients machine to another and they don't have 1000mbit capability. I install 1000Mbit cards. Time is money!

 

[frasertag]

I have probably jumped in abit too late

But my house was built last year and is as follows

RJ45 Socket in every room, this all links back to a patch panel in the built in robe in the currently spare bedroom, this connects to a 10port Gigabit switch.
I live a rural property and my neighbours were keen on getting some of the tvshows and movies i have on my computer on theres so we made a trench between the houses ran condute down the sides of our houses and through the ground with a CAT 6 cable between the two. not only are we networked we have twice the internet bandwidth thanks to my IPCOP Firewall/DNS Server its smart enough to tell all the computers on the network which internet service to use based on usage. IE If one computer is downloading heaps and heaps then it puts the lighter users on the other connection. anyways thats my network. There is a Main Server with 2TB of storage (FULL) that houses all the Movies,Music and TV Shows grabbed from the net.

But what do you use to watch all these shows?? listern to this music???
Well at my house I have a 42" LG Plasma
A Fraser built system which has 2 HDTV tuners, 3 x 320g hdd's for recording and local storage. Hooked up to the gigabit network of course.
The videocard in this system has Two video outputs, this allows two monitors to be run on it. The main screen is the plasma and the secondary screen is mounted on the wall next to the home theatre couch for surfing the net. To use the internet side of things a Bluetooth Keyboard and Mouse is in order as wireless just doesnt cut it and it comes in handy for monitor number 3. Monitor number 3 i here you ask? well the Plasma is the main screen and it runs Vista Media Centre while the secondary monitor runs a desktop enviroment for my wife too use. From the main screen I can watch any show i have downloaded, recorded tv and live tv with digital pvr functions such as pausing live tv etc. So the signal from the computer for the plasma is run through a splitter before it actually goes to the plasma and the second output from the splitter runs into the bedroom. this means there is also media centre in the bedroom.
OK i hope people are following. I have 7.1 Surround sound in the lounge but only stereo sound from the monitor in the bedroom.

Now whatever is playing on the plasma plays in the bedroom.. this was a problem until a few months ago, EG i wanted to watch the latest topgear episode and my wife wanted to watch something else in the bedroom as she went to bed earlier. Well now i have an Xbox 360 in the lounge also hooked up to the plasma via HDMI and my amp it acts as an extender for media centre and my downloaded media. So i simply press watch tv 2 on my logitech remote it turns on my xbox puts tv to hdmi and changes the amps channel.

The last piece of the puzzle is my wife in the bedroom watching whatever me in the lounge watching something else she takes the bluetooth mouse to the bedroom and can controll the media centre in the bedroom as the remote is infared and doesnt work through walls but the mouse does.

The other house that im networked with has a Media centre also but just a stand alone system rigged up to a 50" Plasma.