Infections From Hell And How You Solved Them.

[Screwtop]

Thanks very much for the above Screwy. Don't be worried about posting, "VERY basic stuff," as it might seem basic to you but for many it won't be. Remember a few years ago that you had been brewing for well over a year and you brought that infected beer to Batz's? Nothing is obvious and there certainly isn't an easy, "go to," place to find this sort of information. It isn't easy as I have in the past started threads on it that resulted in nothing like the information you provided above. So, don't be embarrassed about providing what you believe to be obvious.

Not embarrassed to say I've had my fair share of infections Pat, but cleaning and sanitation is any brewing text page one stuff. In every case of infection in my beer it was because of some slack application of the basics on my behalf.

Used to open the fermenting fridge so often in the early days, no wonder some brews became infected, every time I opened the door the protective Co2 ran out.

Now have some additional rules to brew by and if they are observed without fail I find the risk of infection is reduced. Proper sanitation of all equipment should guard againse infection from contact with wort. When it comes to airborne bugs good yeast health and pitching rate are very important, yeast will beat the badies to the punch if they are in good nick. Once Co2 production has ceased the wort needs to be protected from airborne infection so then seal it up and don't keep opening the fermentation fridge, where possible use a chest freezer. I leave fermenters open and no infections, when the freezer lid is opened to take a sample the Co2 just about drops me. Seal up the fermenters and drop temp once fermentation has ceased, another aid in reducing infection.

A couple of questions/corrections though...

Bleach Solution: Obviously what you wrote there is a typo. Storing taps in a 20 to 1 solution of bleach is an absolute no no of course. Maybe your bleach is non-chlorine-based?

Been doing this for years Pat, before AG and not the only one. All of my fermenter taps, airlocks etc are stored in a 20:1 bleach solution until required.

Stainless Steel: From what I read above you only use PBW and nothing else on your stainless. Is that right?

PBW for all metal and hoses

Hypochloric Acid: Where do you buy that? Anyone else use this?

Where the fcuk did I get that from Pat..........meant Sodium Hypochlorite = Bleach

Sorry, PAA = peracetic acid. from the top of my head it is a mixture of peroxide and acetic acid. I'm sure you can pick it up somewhere. I'll do some research and get back.
Adam

Available here Adam, used by a local brewery hereabouts.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Brad Sofield]

Thanks PP. I may just swap that SS valve out for a breakable one. Not to scared but it definitely has raised further awareness about hygiene in areas I presumed would be cleaned with boiling water or Starsan. I will keep reading and brewing regardless. Too much fun.Thanks again.

 

[Brad Sofield]

Hi all,
I have used what was called peroxicetic acid available from TWOC. A combination of peroxide and acetic acid I believe and can be quite nasty on the hands if spilt. Roy stores behind the counter to avoid issues. Be careful when decanting.

 

[acoulson]

Well, here is the cleaning regime we used at the brewery:

I suggest you adapt it to your own needs. Also use the concentrations and safety precautions suggested on the cleaning solutions. Even on a commercial level we ask and listen to the advice of cleaning experts like Ecolab because it it a complicated science. Not only do you have the cleaning or sterilising agent but other chemicals included like surfactants and wetting agents to help the cleaning solutions stick to the surface and spread evenly.

Here is the regime for each stage of the brewing process;

 

[acoulson]

Almost all the cleaning solutions are introduced through a spray head at the top called a SPRAYBALL or JET HEAD. The solutions hit the wall or surface, run down and pool at the tank bottom.

Water;

- We used to carbon filter but now use reverse osmosis

Brewhouse;

(mash tun lauter tun and pipework).
- Rinsed with hot liquor after each brew and transfer.
- At the end of the week the whole system was cleaned with hot caustic (3%) and rinsed with hot water. The caustic was mixed in each vessel for a short period 1-2 hours hour and then transferred to the next.
- Every month or as required acid clean with phosphoric acid

(kettle)
- Rinsed out with cold water after each brew
- Caustic clean and water rinse after every 8 brews to improve boil efficiency
- Included in the end of week total clean

Lager Cellar;

(fermenters, storage tanks & pipe-work)
- Rinsed with water then hot caustic cleaned after each brew with a post caustic rinse then sterilise with peracetic (PAA, peroxyaceticacid).
-Acid cleaning every 10 brews or as required.

(Bright beer tanks)
- Rinse and acid wash (phosphoric 2%) and rinse after each filling cycle. Sterilise with PAA


Yeast

(before pitching)
- Acid wash with phosphoric acid to a pH of about 2.2 about 2 hours before pitching (precipitates trub and kills many bacteria)
- We used to treat with an antibiotic called "Nisin" (15 mg/l)
- More recently we treat with liquid isomerised hop extract (100-200 mg/l)

Bottles

(New)
- Rinsed with sterile water (ozone or UV treated but cooled boiling water is fine for homebrew - I just use tap water)

(Used)
- Warm water pre-soak and then insides jetted with warm water (60 degrees)
- Labels are removed with hot caustic soak (70-80 degrees) and mechanical jetting.
- Inside cleaned with hot caustic jet (70-80 degrees), drained and rinsed with 40 degree water
- A double stage rinse with sterile water. (The high temperate caustic is enough to sterilise the bottles)

 

[acoulson]

A lot has been written about taking apart systems and cleaning which is great advice with but a large and complicated set up you might want to consider CIP (cleaning in place) where you clean without disassembling everything. Advantages are- you minimise contact with the outside environment, use less chemicals and save time.

If you have a simple set-up, keep it simple- clean the pipes manually, soak them well and avoid using taps, valves and long fixed line runs. My AG set-up at home has one tap on my lauter tun so I can control the run-off speed and the rest is plain silicon piping for transfers.

I hope you are able to use some this info in your home brewing.
All of this is from my memories of working at the various areas of the brewery during my career so if you see any faults or if I missed some things don't hesitate to point them out.

Cheers
Adam

 

[Brad Sofield]

Thanks beersolutionsjapan, The detailed cleaning outline will come in handy.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Sorry, PAA = peracetic acid. from the top of my head it is a mixture of peroxide and acetic acid. I'm sure you can pick it up somewhere. I'll do some research and get back.
Adam

Yes I use (PAA) for sterilisation but it's dangerous to use unless you are real care full , so I dont sell it.People have lost their eye sight from this product, so its not a good option for amateur brewers.My cleaning is done by Caustic solutions then followed by PAA.Also its good to reverse your cleaning sanitising process, EG acid cleaner then caustic sanitiser.A good way to keep ever thing under control.This is just an overview of a total process, there is a lot more involved.
GB

 

[seravitae]

GB do you make your own peracetic acid? From vinegar and hydrogen peroxide, or do you purchase high concentrated acetic acid and go from there?

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

GB do you make your own peracetic acid? From vinegar and hydrogen peroxide, or do you purchase high concentrated acetic acid and go from there?

I buy it in 20 L containers.I use a dose of between 2.5 to 3ml per litre which will kill "every thing" in about 3 minutes contact time assuming that the vessel is well physically cleaned.Having things cleaned is the first step.With out this first step there is no guarantees.
GB

 

[eamonnfoley]

So we had the same brew kettle, chiller, transfer hoses etc. This fermenter was dressed in brand new clothes and still I had the problem. I had narrowed it down to the bare fermenter plus lid something I should have done many, many months ago.

Hey Pat,

Are you saying its your plastic fermenter - as in the thing itself? Are you sure? I kept thinking that was the case with my troubles. Maybe its just the rubber seal?

 

[PistolPatch]

Where the fcuk did I get that from Pat..........meant Sodium Hypochlorite = Bleach

LOL Screwy. Sorry, I was getting a bit tired/frustrated/ratty on Friday night after too tiring a fortnight. I still don't reckon this chemical thing is simple. There is so much contradictory or incomplete information around but I think we are getting there here.

Am going to listen to this Brewing Network show on cleaning today with a bit of luck.

I'm not scared of using bleach myself but I reckon it gets misused a lot. For example, anyone soaking an assembled tap in it could well expect problems. Other people use it with hot water which neutralises it etc, etc. Soaking fliters in it will eat them away every time they are re-wetted. (This is why you will get holes in clothes months after you spill bleach on them.)

I think failing to use any acid has been where I have stuffed up big time but it wasn't until recently I have seen this emphasised unfortunateley. I imagine you are using the PAA on your SS as well as PBW?

Thanks again for providing all the above.

Unratty,
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

So I don't bore everyone to death, I won't reply individually to the above but thanks very much for the great posts and detail above.

Anyone want to have a crack at answering the following?...

What alkaline and acid chemicals would you use to clean and sanitize John Guest fittings without wrecking them considering they are made from stainless steel, rubber and nylon?

If you can, please provide dilution rates, hot/cold water and soaking times. Also if possible, can you suggest a chemical mix which is not overly dangerous to handle?

I only have one eye left. That's why I...

a lot,
Pat

P.S. I'm hoping that answering the above might give a simple regime that will cover all brewery materials with perhaps the exception of aluminium.

P.P.S. Foles, will have to answer later maybe by email. Spot!

 

[Guest Lurker]

So I don't bore everyone to death, I won't reply individually to the above but thanks very much for the great posts and detail above.


What alkaline and acid chemicals would you use to clean and sanitize John Guest fittings without wrecking them considering they are made from stainless steel, rubber and nylon?

One data point. When looking for leaks, I used to use my spray bottle of othophosphoric acid made at sanitiser rates, it has a surfactant, so is good for finding leaks. Within a month or so the JG fittings were completely stuffed, the plastic went white, the stainless steel teeth fell out. Those JG fittings do not like acid at all.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

One data point. When looking for leaks, I used to use my spray bottle of othophosphoric acid made at sanitiser rates, it has a surfactant, so is good for finding leaks. Within a month or so the JG fittings were completely stuffed, the plastic went white, the stainless steel teeth fell out. Those JG fittings do not like acid at all.

I was trying to remember what it was that destroyed your JG fittings ! What dilution rate do you use for Ortho sanitiser and do you know the resultant pH? I am assuming you sprayed it on and didnt wash it off ?
GB

 

[PistolPatch]

One data point. When looking for leaks, I used to use my spray bottle of othophosphoric acid made at sanitiser rates, it has a surfactant, so is good for finding leaks. Within a month or so the JG fittings were completely stuffed, the plastic went white, the stainless steel teeth fell out. Those JG fittings do not like acid at all.

Now that's a scary post! And most informative thanks GL.

One of my biggest worries is that seeing as I have never done any acid cleaning, I imagine I need to give all my stuff a decent go with acid to get things back to scratch. But...

I have JG fittings everywhere and these are damn expensive so I don't want to go damaging them in a single hit. What to do?

If I had my time again, I imagine one correct alkaline/acid procedure would be using something like PBW and Starsan which sounds great after listening to half the Jamil/John show today and which may be why we are seeing so many posts on these products lateley???

Starsan is acidic and acts as a scale inhibitor not a remover so I expect this won't help me get things back on track.

Maybe if we use JG fittings, we need to rinse with a third sanitiser which is neutral in pH?

I'm thinking of something like Hy-San which is a horticultural sanitiser that [edit: have now deleted their name after discovering the below] got hold of for me 3 years ago and is what I have been using the whole time as my no rinse sanitiser. I've been using it at 1ml per litre as advised but looking at the bottle now it says for, "propagation sanitising," use 100mls per 10lts. [Edit: Unbelievable! I even went to the chemist to buy a 3ml dropper for this!]

It looks like I have been using one tenth of the recommended amount all this time , I'd say that is another major cause of my problems. Not very happy but there you go.

Anyway, maybe a product like this could be good for this purpose if mixed at 10ml per litre? Cost was $24 per bottle back then so that is 100lts per bottle.

Active ingredients are....

Hysan H2O2 12%
Colloidal Silver <0.03gm/L
Hydrous Oxide to 100%

I was told you can drink it too. At least I didn't do that!

Thanks GL,
Pat

P.S. When I said rubber was a component of JG fittings in my post this morning, I was wrong. The O rings in these fittings would be silicone. I had foles post in mind as I wrote which I'll reply to next.

 

[PistolPatch]

Hey Pat,

Are you saying its your plastic fermenter - as in the thing itself? Are you sure? I kept thinking that was the case with my troubles. Maybe its just the rubber seal?

Foles, after the discovery I made in my post above, I am temporarily depressed but I won't throw myself off the top of my beer fridge just yet as I am simply too tired to go and get my ladder .

Maybe some good news to start off though hey?

I finally gained the courage to taste my other 3 beers yesterday and the 2 lagers and other ale I brewed 2 weeks ago are fine.

Though we are having some worthwhile interludes in between on infection prevention, (and by all means, keep those interesting and informative posts coming), this thread is mainly about getting things back on track so I have to work out what to do next.

I really want to use 30lt fermenters as I have 23lt kegs and therefore should be putting about 25.5lts into the fermenter to allow for trub, easy handling (not scraping every last drop) and a few hydrometer readings/tastes which really need 200mls or more if you use a proper hydro jar.

I have one new 30lt fermenter and three old 25lt fermenters. I still want 4 fermenters though so I can brew big in this cooler weather and for next year's ABBD .

So, I'm not going to stuff around with the fermenter that has the current infection. I've had enough and I don't care what is causing the problem! So, that will get retired and I'll replace it with a new 30lt fermenter which costs $30.

But, your post interests me as I have never liked those fermenter seals. They are pretty crap I reckon. I have heaps of them accumulated and their lids as I have experimented with different lid configurations for closed transfers. (You can buy the lids plus seal for $5. But now that I am in a temporary state of not clinical but cleanliness depression and anxiety, I might find out if I can get silcone ones to replace them.

I mean the fermenter seals are crap. They are glued together and if you smell them, you can smell the rubber or whatever in them. They are certainly not ideal.

I'll let you know if I get lucky in finding a source or maybe I'll get Nev to look instead and then he can sell them and save me a hundred phone calls etc.

Having 2 new fermenters is the quickest and most economical way for me to get back on track now that I have finally got it into my head that the problem has always originated there. With these ones I now know to hit them with acid as well as alkaline and after tonight, I know that the steriliser I have been using is not as miraculous as it was made out to be.

With the other 3 fermenters, I'd like to be able to use them to perhaps store diluted cleaning chemicals in. In the two that I know are OK, maybe I can store cleaners/sanitisers that will still allow me to use them for the occasional brew. For the third fermenter which is dodgy, well I don't care what goes in that because it won't see a brew ever again.

So, this begs other questions that I have been unable to ever find clear cut answers to for any chemical with the exception of iodophour...

"How long can you store diluted chemical x for?"
"How many times can you re-use it?"
"Will the chemical work at room temperature?"

etc, etc etc.

What do you reckon Foles
Pat

P.S. I have to keg a beer tomorrow so am going to hit it with citric acid prior to assembly to hopefully get rid of some of the invisible inorganics that must have built up over all this time. Wish me luck!

 

[PistolPatch]

Since my last posts above, I have asked 2 retailers how to clean JG fittings. One who is on-line here and one off-line.

Both have not been able to give me a committed answer and neither of them has indicated to me they will hurry to find an answer let alone ring John Guest. (One of them is sick at the moment so I'll give him that. He's the retailer I have lent the BIAB bag design to and now sells a lot of them. He's also a friend of mine but is a lazy retailer when it comes to stuff like this. Anyway, that is ok.)

But, I'm a bit sick too.

I'm sick of asking questions here, (especially when I try to answer so many), that I end up having to find the answers for myself.

So, let's close this futile thread.

Here is what I have found off my own bat and after having to read and listen to a heap of stuff that is apparently obvious to everyone bar me. These are just a few things though. I could do a lot more but why bother if the retailers, the ones who supply us, are happy to give us no advice or wrong advice?

...I started to write a list below but what is the point?

I can point out a heap of bad advice freely given on this forum but what friends do I gain there? I can point out a heap of good advice but how long will that take me to write and who will actually read it?

If the above sounds like sour grapes, then you are spot on. For me to write so much on this forum, give away freely ideas for retailers to profit from and not have one retailer bother to at least say, "I don't know the answer," to a question that is about their product leaves me shaking my head.

And there you go,
Pat

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I remember telling you to use beer line cleaner or cellarman both work and are non destructive.Short term memory loss ?
GB

 

[AndrewQLD]

Pat, stop posting at 2:00 am, seriously mate you always post back the next day regretting it.
And yes it does sound like sour grapes, HTFU. Maybe nobody knows the answer?

To get back on topic, PBW to clean the JG fittings and Starsan or Phos acid to sanitize or as Gryphon has posted above, excellent advice.

Andrew