Infections From Hell And How You Solved Them.

[Leigh]

The other day was the first time I have have tasted or smelt apples in PP's beer. Im still wondering why we have not got an infection in the All amarillo and the pilsner? We used the same yeast which was second generation???

Lets hope this is the end of it.

That just tells us the infection is after the kettle, so a fermenter or cube maybe.

 

[PistolPatch]

I told you , I told You , I told you ..... Oh Did I say I told You so...


Ned

You did, you did, you did!!! The buggers at the shop lied! I have to wait until i get the invoice before I can start arguing with them. Least I didn't get done for $19.000 though like you - lol!

My goodness, that was a horribly long post last night. I think it answered several posts though which leaves...

beersolutionsjapan: bsj is going to expand on the cleaning schedule he mentioned. Looking forward to that post!

kram: The bleach and vinegar sounds nice and simple. I wonder if it gets rid of the film and beerstone??? Loved the anthrax comment!

katie: It was weird that you didn't get caught out. (Katie's brew was pitched with yeast washed from one of my acetyldehyde batches. I didn't realise at the time it had the infection.) There are a few possibilities here but I'd only be guessing. Your lager was new yeast so don't even worry about that one.

GB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. LOL!

Thanks to everyone else here who has added to the list or made suggestions.

Donya,
Pat

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

You did, you did, you did!!! The buggers at the shop lied! I have to wait until i get the invoice before I can start arguing with them. Least I didn't get done for $19.000 though like you - lol!

My goodness, that was a horribly long post last night. I think it answered several posts though which leaves...

beersolutionsjapan: bsj is going to expand on the cleaning schedule he mentioned. Looking forward to that post!

kram: The bleach and vinegar sounds nice and simple. I wonder if it gets rid of the film and beerstone??? Loved the anthrax comment!

katie: It was weird that you didn't get caught out. (Katie's brew was pitched with yeast washed from one of my acetyldehyde batches. I didn't realise at the time it had the infection.) There are a few possibilities here but I'd only be guessing. Your lager was new yeast so don't even worry about that one.

GB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. LOL!

Thanks to everyone else here who has added to the list or made suggestions.

Donya,
Pat

Did I mention that Nappisan is NOT a sanitiser ?
GB

 

[Screwtop]

Did I mention that Nappisan is NOT a sanitiser ?
GB

Geeeezus GB, do I have to agree with you....................................... :angry: Pat, Napisan is a detergent, it removes shit.............

Buy yourself some Bleach man FFS use something that kills bugs. ...............................................%^$^$

Screwy

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Geeeezus GB, do I have to agree with you....................................... :angry: Pat, Napisan is a detergent, it removes shit.............

Buy yourself some Bleach man FFS use something that kills bugs. ...............................................%^$^$

Screwy

Thanks Screwy, thats twice now we have agreed :lol: , if we keep telling PP he might get the message.
GB

 

[manticle]

[Still waiting for Gotalk to come and repair my internet. In the meantime I have been using my mobile as a modem thinking it cost mobile phone rates like they told me on Wednesday at the Vodafone shop . Found out yesterday that they are charging per kb. Grrrrrr. How can PP operate on a per kb basis lol. Anyway, excuse me if I miss anyone's questions below or in the post that follows.]

Off topic but be careful. I recently signed on for an $8 for 300 MB deal using my phone as a modem. I expected to be prompted to buy another 300 when that ran out - instead I got charged around $400 for just over 700 MB extra. That's a bit like buying one carton of milk for 1.70 then getting charged $24 for second and subsequent ones.

Some 3 sales rep will be copping an earful soon - blatant profiteering and nothing else. I'm sure it was written somewhere in the fine print of the seventh page of the contract on my mobile phone but blaming someone for standing in a bear trap because you left a sign hidden in the bushes nearby warning of bear traps in the vicinity still makes you a prick.

 

[flattop]

My problem was a medicinal taste.

I brewed through last summer due to a swag of OS relatives coming over and drinking like fish.... and i was doing K&K but i guess that Italian beer must be really bad as they loved my stuff.
Anyhow i brewed a Smokey Belgian that just came out all wrong, band aid taste, kinda medicinal flavor.
I was sterilizing with bleach so i blamed that, changed my routine from a flush to a soak.
No good.
I changed to starsan
No good
I wasted about 4 kits and had no result.
I threw out the fermenter and started again!

What i suspect is that the bacteria had gotten into the fermenter in places like the tap and the thread and the lid seal even though i was fastidious the last few times i cleaned them.
Lessons learned, cleaning taps works but i found that they are sometimes stiff to turn after cleaning.
I throw out my taps after about 3-5 brews, they are cheap and easy to replace.
It's $2 VS losing a $25 brew, since i've gone to AG it wouldn't bother me if i lost the cost of the brew, it would kill me after the labor and effort of doing a mash and throwing it out.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

My problem was a medicinal taste.

I brewed through last summer due to a swag of OS relatives coming over and drinking like fish.... and i was doing K&K but i guess that Italian beer must be really bad as they loved my stuff.
Anyhow i brewed a Smokey Belgian that just came out all wrong, band aid taste, kinda medicinal flavor.
I was sterilizing with bleach so i blamed that, changed my routine from a flush to a soak.
No good.
I changed to starsan
No good
I wasted about 4 kits and had no result.
I threw out the fermenter and started again!

What i suspect is that the bacteria had gotten into the fermenter in places like the tap and the thread and the lid seal even though i was fastidious the last few times i cleaned them.
Lessons learned, cleaning taps works but i found that they are sometimes stiff to turn after cleaning.
I throw out my taps after about 3-5 brews, they are cheap and easy to replace.
It's $2 VS losing a $25 brew, since i've gone to AG it wouldn't bother me if i lost the cost of the brew, it would kill me after the labor and effort of doing a mash and throwing it out.

A very valid point on the taps , I do the same and never get infections.Yes a couple of buck compared to 50L of good AG brew down the shiter.
Gb

 

[Brad Sofield]

Yeah cheers Matt- My next question was how do you pull apart the one piece SS ball valves. Your way looks better and according to the microbiologist no bugs can survive temps above 70d for more than a minute or two.
Cheers

 

[PistolPatch]

Yeah cheers Matt- My next question was how do you pull apart the one piece SS ball valves. Your way looks better and according to the microbiologist no bugs can survive temps above 70d for more than a minute or two.
Cheers

Look out! I'm back on the net .

Brad, have you got a pic? It might help to explain it. Some you just need 2 spanners and a lot of brute force to crack for the first time. Others need an allen key.

You must pull them apart to clean them properly. Even running a boiling solution of the most aggressive chemical and opening and closing the valve a hundred times will not guarantee you success.

Cheers,
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

Did I mention that Nappisan is NOT a sanitiser ?
GB

Okay GB and Screwy, fill out the following template please .

Actually I am serious as all we get usually on the forum is a snippet of info here and there. Here's a draft of what I think might help us all. Feel free to correct or expand it. Anyone following this thread will appreciate the time you take with the below.

My Cleaning / Sanitisation Regime...

My chemical mixes are...

A) Soaker/Cleaner: (Chemical Name): Grams/mls mixed with mls of hot/cold water for ? mins/hrs.
B) Sanitiser - Acid Based: (Chemical Name): Grams/mls mixed with mls of hot/cold water for ? mins/hrs.
C) Sanitiser - Alkaline Based: (Chemical Name): Grams/mls mixed with mls of hot/cold water for ? mins/hrs.
D) Steriliser: (Chemical Name): Grams/mls mixed with mls of hot/cold water for ? mins/hrs.
E) Other: (Chemical Name): Grams/mls mixed with mls of hot/cold water for ? mins/hrs.
etc...

Which of the above do you use on your stainless steel and plastics? How do you use them?

Stainless Steel: (e.g) A on every 1 brew/s. B on every 10th brew. C on 9 out of 10 brews. D before and after every brew.
Plastics: (e.g) As above.

 

[Brad Sofield]

Thanks PP
Raced out to the shed to get pics. I know on my two piece BV's I can remove the nut from one end and take out the ball section but this SS one I'm not sure about. In the pic also the two quick connects on the ends of the silicone hose, well one of them I use to transer from kettle to cube so I would presume breaking the hose away from the fitting to clean that spigot out would be a good idea. Additionally I reckon I should mark one to use permanenlty for the mash tum to kettle transfer so as to not mix up with the cleaner kettle to cube.
Geez so many contamination points!

Ps Thanks for the nightmare stories, this is only my second AG so your lessons hard learned may save alot of us B) .

 

[Screwtop]

My chemical mixes are...

A) Soaker/Cleaner: (Percarbonate/Napisan): Tablespoon/1L of cold water for. After every use soak/scrub fermenters, taps seals and airlocks all dismantled after use then rinsed and stored dry. All other components, taps etc stored in a 20:1 Bleach solution in a 2L ice cream container until required.

'B) Sanitiser - Acid Based: (Iodophor): 1ml mixed with 1L of cold water, for every batch soaked for 20 min prior to use after a soak with Bleach Solution. Soak fermenters, taps seals and airlocks after assembly prior to use.


C) Sanitiser - Acid Based: (Hypochloric Acid): 200ml mixed with 5L of cold water. Prior to use for every batch soak all fermenters taps etc after assembly for min 20 min. Rinse then use Iodophor no-rinse sanitiser.

D)

E) Other: (PBW): 20g mixed with 10L of 40-50C water. Clean In Place after every brew, all SS vessels, valves, pump and plumbing recirculated for 30 min. Rinsed then with clean water.



Screwy

This is all VERY basic stuff PP.

 

[PistolPatch]

Thanks PP
Raced out to the shed to get pics. I know on my two piece BV's I can remove the nut from one end and take out the ball section but this SS one I'm not sure about.

I'm not sure about that one either as I can't see a line on it anywhere that it will break. Maybe some ball-valves don't break??? Hopefully someone here will recognise it.

In the pic also the two quick connects on the ends of the silicone hose, well one of them I use to transer from kettle to cube so I would presume breaking the hose away from the fitting to clean that spigot out would be a good idea.

It's really hard when you start out brewing as you always look for bits and pieces that will get the job done and hardly ever think of the time the bits you buy will take to pull apart and clean. Quick connect fittings might be quick to connect and disconnect but often take considerable time to pull apart and clean. Maybe a hose tail and one of those hose clamps that you can tighten by hand would be the go? Definitely worth a think.

Additionally I reckon I should mark one to use permanenlty for the mash tum to kettle transfer so as to not mix up with the cleaner kettle to cube.

Dressing your gear in the same clothes definitely has no downside and may serve you well in the future. (I'm glad that someone read something I wrote last night - lol!) The only question here is the best way to permanently mark them.

Geez so many contamination points! Thanks for the nightmare stories, this is only my second AG so your lessons hard learned may save alot of us B) .

When I started this thread, I didn't mean to scare new brewers. The overwhelming chances are that you will do a heap of brews without a problem. There are a heap of brewers whose cleaning skills amount to a squirt with the garden hose who have never had a problem. I know - I have tasted their beer and it has been great :angry:.

I started the thread more for brewers who suddenly developed a problem after many brews. I was looking for some culprits that may not be obvious and once the culprit was identified, how that brewer got back to a clean brewery.

I see though that you and a few other new brewers are reading this thread and that is great!!! But one thing that would worry me is if new brewers got paranoid about cleaning etc. I know plenty of brewers that never pull hoses apart and never have a problem.

So the real questions are, "What procedures can we implement to lower the risk of infection without spending 24 hours a day pulling things apart etc?" And, when we do get a problem, "How can I rid my brewery of an infection?"

So Brad, please don't let the nightmare stories worry you and make you spend more time cleaning than enjoying your brewing. I think what you, myself and anyone else should attune themselves to here is....

1. What is a cleaning regime you can follow that is convenient and that you can be fairly confident in?
2. When you buy more gear, ask yourself, "Will this really make things easier?" As foles said previously in this thread, the more gear you get, the more possible problems. For example, if they still sold auto-syphons like they used to I would never have put ball-valves on my kettles. Ball-valves look better and have many advantages but they are time-consuming to clean properly and re-connect up. Thread tape, spanners and checking for leaks is not fun but you hear little about that. If an auto-syphon of the same diameter they used to make was still available I would still use that as the cleaning is so easy. If one was made in stainless I would doubly use it as I could also transfer hot or boiling liquid or wort.
3. What checklist/procedure should a brewer follow to rid their brewery of an infection on the off-chance that they do get one? This was the main reason for this thread and will be the end result of it I hope as everyone like yourself contributes or asks questions.

Already 2) above is something we can all act on. 1) should be provided in this thread soon and 3) should follow soon after!

Brew on Brad and when I get some good beers on tap here, I will invite you over as you aren't too far away.

Spot,
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

My chemical mixes are...

A) Soaker/Cleaner: (Percarbonate/Napisan): Tablespoon/1L of cold water for. After every use soak/scrub fermenters, taps seals and airlocks all dismantled after use then rinsed and stored dry. All other components, taps etc stored in a 20:1 Bleach solution in a 2L ice cream container until required.

'B) Sanitiser - Acid Based: (Iodophor): 1ml mixed with 1L of cold water, for every batch soaked for 20 min prior to use after a soak with Bleach Solution. Soak fermenters, taps seals and airlocks after assembly prior to use.


C) Sanitiser - Acid Based: (Hypochloric Acid): 200ml mixed with 5L of cold water. Prior to use for every batch soak all fermenters taps etc after assembly for min 20 min. Rinse then use Iodophor no-rinse sanitiser.

D)

E) Other: (PBW): 20g mixed with 10L of 40-50C water. Clean In Place after every brew, all SS vessels, valves, pump and plumbing recirculated for 30 min. Rinsed then with clean water.



Screwy

This is all VERY basic stuff PP.

Thanks very much for the above Screwy. Don't be worried about posting, "VERY basic stuff," as it might seem basic to you but for many it won't be. Remember a few years ago that you had been brewing for well over a year and you brought that infected beer to Batz's? Nothing is obvious and there certainly isn't an easy, "go to," place to find this sort of information. It isn't easy as I have in the past started threads on it that resulted in nothing like the information you provided above. So, don't be embarrassed about providing what you believe to be obvious.

A couple of questions/corrections though...

Bleach Solution: Obviously what you wrote there is a typo. Storing taps in a 20 to 1 solution of bleach is an absolute no no of course. Maybe your bleach is non-chlorine-based?

Stainless Steel: From what I read above you only use PBW and nothing else on your stainless. Is that right?

Hypochloric Acid: Where do you buy that? Anyone else use this?

Spot,
Pat

 

[acoulson]

I hope to post a detailed reply maybe tomorrow but looks like you guys are pretty much on track. Just briefly I'll add some more cleaning key points.

For any cleaning there are always 3 factors working together HEAT, MECHANICAL ACTION and CHEMICAL ACTION. All cleaning involves these 3 factors so if you want to improve your cleaning regime you need to adjust one of these three.

Now there are really only two main types of soil- organic (beer scum fats yeast residue) and inorganic (beer stone, salt deposits, scale etc.) Use acid (i.e. phosphoric acid circa 2% and over 20 degrees C) for inorganic and basic i.e. (caustic circa 2%, again hot is more effective) for organic.

On to sanitizers- only useful once the surface is completely clean. They work by either heat (steam or boiling water) or chemical action (PAA {100 mg per litre}, iodophors, bleach)by either poisoning the cells or breaking down the cell walls. I like PAA in the brewery because you can let it sit in the lines and there is no need to rinse. With my home-brewing I simply use boiling water. I've never had an infection in probably over 1000 home-brews. Boiling water leaves no residues, is free and no need to rinse!

MOST IMPORTANT IS NOT YOUR CLEANING REGIME BUT -ASEPTIC TECHNIQUE!

- Sanitise just before you brew, not weeks before and leave it sitting around collecting dust. Bacteria and yeast CAN'T fly- they are transported by dust or liquid or people

- Wash your hands with disinfectant before you brew and don't touch your hair.

- Don't put down hydrometers, lids, airlocks or anything that is going into the beer FACE UP where it will collect dust. And work on a sterile surface. Metho is great for wiping down sink tops but watch it around open flames

- Avoid touching anything that is gong to contact the beer as well as leaning into or over sterilised fermenters or breathing into them.

OTHER GENERAL CLEANING POINTS

-Don't use any abrasives on your kit and someone else mentioned. It provides microscopic crevices for microbes to take hold. Also don't use caustic on aluminium and high concentration chlorine based cleaners will cause pitting over the long term even on stainless (again mentioned earlier)

- Avoid dead legs and elbows where due to low flow-rate you don't get the MECHANICAL action and break down valves as has also been correctly mentioned.

- For beer transfers you want a slow flow-rate through pipes and tubes- Less than 1 meter per second. But for cleaning you need a fast flow-rate of more than 2 m per second.

I'll post my ideal brewery cleaning regime another day because this is already way too long.

Hope it helps,
Cheers, Adam

 

[PistolPatch]

Man, I take so long to write and edit posts! I took so long with the above one that I got timed out on adding the following to Screwtop....

I was trying to add...

"You also wrote about your tap problem in post #23 above (I never got to taste that one) and it sounds like that took you at least a few brews to solve that one so the more information all of us get the better I reckon."

I've only had one infection in my beers so I am happy to listen to someone who has had at least two that I know of and hopefully solved them and who I think started brewing AG at a similar time to myself.

All interesting stuff!

 

[bill_gill85]

Thanks PP
Raced out to the shed to get pics. I know on my two piece BV's I can remove the nut from one end and take out the ball section but this SS one I'm not sure about. In the pic also the two quick connects on the ends of the silicone hose, well one of them I use to transer from kettle to cube so I would presume breaking the hose away from the fitting to clean that spigot out would be a good idea. Additionally I reckon I should mark one to use permanenlty for the mash tum to kettle transfer so as to not mix up with the cleaner kettle to cube.
Geez so many contamination points!

Ps Thanks for the nightmare stories, this is only my second AG so your lessons hard learned may save alot of us B) .

I'm not sure about that one either as I can't see a line on it anywhere that it will break. Maybe some ball-valves don't break??? Hopefully someone here will recognise it.

:icon_offtopic:



Brad & PP,

You might have to have a look internally at the valve, you should see that one end has a hexagonal opening that an allen key will fit. (Part 2 in the image). The part with the hexagonal opening should unscrew (basically a set screw with a hex opening right through), allowing you to remove the ball & the seals. I've never opened one ( just writing from what I've observed) but I'd expect either the part that screws out or the seals to only fit one way, might be best to make note of which face was closest to the ball.

I guess with all the connectors we use for plumbing 2 piece ball valves are a bare minimum to save removing all the plumbing.
Ben

Edit : inserted image

 

[PistolPatch]

Sometimes you have to love AHB!

Whilst doing my last post, two people have gone to a lot of time and trouble to help other brewers out and written in a manner that is, simply, helpful.

Savor the above two posts because they are few and far between.

Good on you billgill and I can't wait until beersolutionsjapan posts his ideal cleaning regime!

Great stuff,
Pat

Edit: I know I could appear knowledgeable and look it up but what is PAA?

 

[acoulson]

Sorry, PAA = peracetic acid. from the top of my head it is a mixture of peroxide and acetic acid. I'm sure you can pick it up somewhere. I'll do some research and get back.
Adam