Infections From Hell And How You Solved Them.

[PistolPatch]

I’m fastidious in my cleanliness but I have had what I think is a bacterial acetyldehyde infection for what must be, embarrassingly, almost 2 years now. We all have different palates and mine can’t stand this infection while other brewers don’t find it offensive. (I entered the least worst beer I had at the time – a Munich Dunkell - in Royal Perth Beer Show only so as I could get a ticket to exhibitor’s tasting and it got a bronze!)

There have been a few brewers on this forum (including very experienced ones) who have had these infections from hell. Heard of another experienced brewer tonight unfortunately. The worst case I know resulted in 1500lts of undrinkable beer over a very long period. The culprit? Well, that one was a kettle ball-valve. No matter how clean ball-valves smell, you don’t know until you pull them apart completely.

Later in this thread, I might go into the stupid mistakes I made in trying to source the problem, the difficulties I had in even identifying it and a few of the steps I actually did do correctly. A lot of the frustrating process I went through was caused by a simple stroke of bad luck at the beginning but in hindsight, I could have found the problem a hell of a lot faster if I had an easy to follow check-list. It has been a ******* to find though.*

I’ll whack a post in directly below this one with the beginnings of a check-list. It is pretty much a copy of a post I wrote recently.

[Someone else wrote a check-list in the last day or so on a similar topic that was very good. (I can’t look it up now though as my internet is buggered and I have to get a technician out apparently so any posts I do now are by my using my mobile phone as a modem!) Hopefully this person will see this thread and add to the list in Post #2.]

Feel free to add to the list I will start below no matter how stupid or obvious your suggestion is. I will clean the list up as the thread progresses and then prioritise it. I hope that this thread might result in a nice check-list we can put it in the articles section of AHB.

Spot!
Pat

*I’ll add my culprit to the list later when my internet is working properly . I doubt it will appear on the list because it surprised the hell out of me! (Fingers crossed it is what I think it is otherwise I am never brewing again!!!)

 

[PistolPatch]

As I said above, please add to the list below as I will clean it up and prioritise it later. For example, some of the things I wrote below were written to someone in the US with a unique water profile. These would not be relevant for most Australian brewers. Just add anything you can think of! Just copy and paste my quote below and add to it...

So, here's a start to a checklist that I reckon you should consider fully before you next brew. Making the changes below will certainly do no harm at all.

1. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise any ball-valves you are using in your brewing starting from the kettle tap on.
2. Check any hoses you use during the brewing process. Check they are food-grade and rated to above the maximum temperature they are being exposed to.
3. If you are using a counter-flow chiller or a plate chiller, you need to have a very good look at whether they are actually sterile. Running caustic through them might dislodge some surprising lumps!
4. You need to buy whatever it is needed to raise or lower your pH. Have that on hand and after you add your grain to the mash and agitate it, use your pH strips and additive to get your mash to within 5.2 - 5.6 within say 5 minutes but don't be worried if it takes a lot longer.
5. Use yeast nutrient ten minutes before your boil ends. Use the nutrient not the energizer. Using double what they recommend probably wouldn't hurt given your profile but I should be checked on this.
6. If you are using liquid yeast, how are you using it? (We need more info here I think such as whether you are using a starter.)
7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and "break" the tap if you have one.
8. Aerate your wort vigorously.

 

[petesbrew]

Great idea for a thread, PP.

As a novice AG'er, I'm really starting to get picky with my brews, finding weird flavours in there. The problem is actually identifying them.

 

[eamonnfoley]

Good idea Pat.

Chlorine/chloramines is one that might be underestimated, albiet not exactly an infection issue. I noticed a clear difference when carbon filtered water was used. Campden tablets/sodium met is another way to treat your water.

 

[PistolPatch]

Thanks Pete and foles. (foles has had first-hand experience here ) I'll add foles' thing on chlorine to the list...


1. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise any ball-valves you are using in your brewing starting from the kettle tap on.
2. Check any hoses you use during the brewing process. Check they are food-grade and rated to above the maximum temperature they are being exposed to.
3. If you are using a counter-flow chiller or a plate chiller, you need to have a very good look at whether they are actually sterile. Running caustic through them might dislodge some surprising lumps!
4. You need to buy whatever it is needed to raise or lower your pH. Have that on hand and after you add your grain to the mash and agitate it, use your pH strips and additive to get your mash to within 5.2 - 5.6 within say 5 minutes but don't be worried if it takes a lot longer.
5. Use yeast nutrient ten minutes before your boil ends. Use the nutrient not the energizer. Using double what they recommend probably wouldn't hurt given your profile but I should be checked on this.
6. If you are using liquid yeast, how are you using it? (We need more info here I think such as whether you are using a starter.)
7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and "break" the tap if you have one.
8. Aerate your wort vigorously.
9. Be very sparing when using bleach. Only minute amounts are needed and cold water should be used. A capful of bleach in a 25 lt fermenter is probably about 50 times what is needed. (I'll look that figure up but it is surprisingly low.) Hot water neutralises bleach so ensure you use hot water to rinse off bleach. Do this thoroughly to avoid a medicinal, bandaid or rubbery taste. Don't put bleach near ball-valves as low concentrations will certainly impart a medicinal flavour.

 

[PistolPatch]

Great idea for a thread, PP.

As a novice AG'er, I'm really starting to get picky with my brews, finding weird flavours in there. The problem is actually identifying them.

I'll write more later Pete when I write up my mistakes but make sure you find yourself a recipe you love and make it your base recipe. Brew it 3 times and then you know you can trust it. God knows how many recipes I brewed in the last two years and I learned nothing. I will have to brew them all again.

I had a base recipe but didn't trust it. I blamed everything else. I see now that I have been a total idiot!


Pat

 

[LLoyd]

Thanks Patch!

We'll get those nasty little so and sos. Cheers for the help with our ball valve.

 

[acoulson]

Hi all,

Nice posts and topic.

Hope Im not hijacking but I worked as a microbiologist in a commercial brewery for about 6 years so I would just like to add a few points to those already mentioned.

The advice about keeping everything clean and pulling your equipment apart is golden and really the key. It may look clean, but you have to watch for bio-films which are very thin layers of microbes that build up with time on the insides of pipes and valves and tanks. It helps to use an acid based cleaner once ever 10 or so brews to clean the beer-stone which is the "home base" for bacteria and yeast.

You are pretty safe as long as your wort is above 70 degrees because there are no bugs that can cause infections in beer that can survive that temperature for more than a minute or two. Basically be really careful once you start to chill and aerate.

Once you have a bad infection there is really nothing you can do. Tip it and clean your gear really well and start again. We use PAA ( peracetic acid) in the brewing industry because it is effective and you can flush the residual in the line directly with product. Be careful with chlorine based sterilisers. Residuals will form a strong medicinal taint from a compound called a chlorophenol.

So you know what your looking at, here are the main culpruts and their flavours and habits

Lactic acid bacteria infection - main product is diacetyl - Butterscotch flavour- they like storage conditions

Acetic acid bacteria infection - main products are organic acids - sour and low pH- they prefer more oxygen so watch early ferment and seconday in bottles and anytime air is present

Wild yeast - often produce phenols - clove like flavour or medicinal - anytime but especially watch your pitching yeast if your propagating yourself

cont... next post

 

[acoulson]

When identifying a potential infection use all your senses and tools at your disposal.

Sight- almost all infections show up as a haze or ropiness in the beer

Taste- phenols and sourness are obvious signs

Smell - diacetyl, sulphur and DMS (canned corn smell).

Touch- when you open a bottle and it gushes up and hits you in the eye! (I've experienced it)

Analytical - any pH below 3.9 is suspect. Hyper attenuation -if your gravity is extremely low its probably infected.

Also its worth a note that many of these examples are due to brewing problems too so Don't jump to conclusions.

When finding solutions, look back at when the problem started and when you made changes. Usually you can trace the problem to a change of raw materials, brewing method or new piece of plant. Keep good records of your pH's, gravitys and yeast strains used to build up a picture of normal brewing so you can identify change more easily.

Sorry about the long post.
If you have any questions feel free to pm me . This is my pet field and I could just go on and on and on about it. :icon_cheers: Adam

 

[browndog]

Pat,
If you think the problem is an infection in your fermenter, you could try a no-chill straight to the fermenter directly after flame out, cool overnight then pitch. If you get the taste as the wort is fermenting, I would doubt it is an infection.

cheers

Browndog

 

[Maxt]

Another tip is to run 3-4L of wort through the tap during the boil, and then chuck it back in.

 

[Steve]

Another tip is to run 3-4L of wort through the tap during the boil, and then chuck it back in.

Good tip Matt. Will give that a go.
Cheers
Steve

 

[chappo1970]

Having been thru my own infection HELL over the last 3 brews. Can I suggest we make this an AG wiki or stickie please? As the information in this thread already is gold. I'll give my story later on tonight as it's a ripper story of epic proportions where it's man vs beast. I call it the wild yeast battle at Chappo Manor... (god I'm a dick! )


Cheers

Chappo

 

[boybrewer]

What a great ldea. I have had my first infection and it wasn't due to cleanliness. I had a yeast starter going from a previous batch. I didn't do the taste test and ended up throwing out a double batch, 46lt that hurt,it turned out the yeast was infected, it had such a sourness to it that when l took the lids off the fermenters and stuck my head in for a sniff all l got was burnt nostrels. :icon_vomit:
The moral of this story is like any good chef taste before you pitch.


Cheers
Mike (BB)

 

[Leigh]

The advice about keeping everything clean and pulling your equipment apart is golden and really the key. It may look clean, but you have to watch for bio-films which are very thin layers of microbes that build up with time on the insides of pipes and valves and tanks. It helps to use an acid based cleaner once ever 10 or so brews to clean the beer-stone which is the "home base" for bacteria and yeast.

You are pretty safe as long as your wort is above 70 degrees because there are no bugs that can cause infections in beer that can survive that temperature for more than a minute or two. Basically be really careful once you start to chill and aerate.

Once you have a bad infection there is really nothing you can do. Tip it and clean your gear really well and start again. We use PAA ( peracetic acid) in the brewing industry because it is effective and you can flush the residual in the line directly with product. Be careful with chlorine based sterilisers. Residuals will form a strong medicinal taint from a compound called a chlorophenol.

...being a chemist, I cringe sometimes at the hyper-treatment some people give their kit to try and clean and sanitise...

Building on your point, and PP's second point about using pieces how they were intended:

Read the instructions and don't use cleaners/sanitisers for what they weren't intended for. More is quite often less effective or worse, destructive. You can quite easily create a porous surface on hoses if you treat them the wrong way...can add nasty flavours to your brew and provides a nice hiding place for infections.

 

[raven19]

1. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise any ball-valves you are using in your brewing starting from the kettle tap on.
2. Check any hoses you use during the brewing process. Check they are food-grade and rated to above the maximum temperature they are being exposed to.
3. If you are using a counter-flow chiller or a plate chiller, you need to have a very good look at whether they are actually sterile. Running caustic through them might dislodge some surprising lumps!
4. You need to buy whatever it is needed to raise or lower your pH. Have that on hand and after you add your grain to the mash and agitate it, use your pH strips and additive to get your mash to within 5.2 - 5.6 within say 5 minutes but don't be worried if it takes a lot longer.
5. Use yeast nutrient ten minutes before your boil ends. Use the nutrient not the energizer. Using double what they recommend probably wouldn't hurt given your profile but I should be checked on this.
6. If you are using liquid yeast, how are you using it? (We need more info here I think such as whether you are using a starter.)
7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and "break" the tap if you have one.
8. Aerate your wort vigorously.
9. Be very sparing when using bleach. Only minute amounts are needed and cold water should be used. A capful of bleach in a 25 lt fermenter is probably about 50 times what is needed. (I'll look that figure up but it is surprisingly low.) Hot water neutralises bleach so ensure you use hot water to rinse off bleach. Do this thoroughly to avoid a medicinal, bandaid or rubbery taste. Don't put bleach near ball-valves as low concentrations will certainly impart a medicinal flavour.
10. Remove taps from fermentors to clean them, clean around the thread fermentor area. Have spare taps on hand just incase
11. Remove the rubber seal in the fermentor lid (if you use a lid)
12. Taste your yeast starter, learn what it should taste like so you know you are pitching a viable yeast
13. Clean your no-chill cubes (if you no chill) straight away after use. Leave a mild solution of bleach/Napisan and water in them and shake them every time you remember (from the no-chill thread I think).
14. Clean up all equipment straight after brewing (general housekeeping I dare say)

Edit: Great topic Pistol.

 

[warra48]

OK, this is post fermentation, but I has some infection issues earlier last year. One of my brews made a bit of a mess around Ross' bar, unfortunately.

I tracked mine down to 2 reasons eventually.

1. Using recycled ginger beer bottles. I don't think I ever was able to really get them clean and sanitised properly. I don't use them anymore.

2. My little bottler. The bit at the bottom of the spring thing has a tiny rubber seal. I had never noticed it before, but it had collected a small amount of crud under the rubber seal. I dismantled it, cleaned it properly, and sanitised it again. I now dismantle it every brew to clean and sanitise it.

I've fortunately not had any further infections since fixing these issues.

 

[Jesse]

how do you do "break" the tap???? Mine has gunk in it some where and I can't get it out

" 7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and "break" the tap if you have one."

also can the sour taste be wheat?

I have one brew that has wheat in it and it's sour. Is that normal?

 

[chappo1970]

how do you do "break" the tap???? Mine has gunk in it some where and I can't get it out

" 7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and "break" the tap if you have one."

also can the sour taste be wheat?

I have one brew that has wheat in it and it's sour. Is that normal?

Jesse,
Screw driver up the bum of the tap and push the outer sleeve down to expose the inner sleeve. You might have to give a bit of a sharp tap on the bench to break the bead binding.

As for sour taste can you describe it in more detail? What's is taste like? Pleasant? Rancid? Vinegar? This all helps trust me doesn't matter if your not good with descriptions just write what comes to your head.

Cheers

Chappo

 

[warra48]

I'm with Chappo, but I use the handle of a wooden spoon to break my taps open. It does less potential damage.
Just turn the tap to about half open. Insert handle of wooden spoon. Grab the tap tightly, and give it a sharp downwards hit onto a firm surface. It should dislodge the tap inners, allowing you to clean it.