Infections From Hell And How You Solved Them.

[PistolPatch]

Yeah, I am tired and grumpy. Having a very frustrating brewing and work week. Just wanting to know how to de-scale my JG fittings without wrecking them before I go running 75lts of beer through them. Grump. Grump. Grump.

 

[eamonnfoley]

Foles, after the discovery I made in my post above, I am temporarily depressed but I won't throw myself off the top of my beer fridge just yet as I am simply too tired to go and get my ladder .

Maybe some good news to start off though hey?

I finally gained the courage to taste my other 3 beers yesterday and the 2 lagers and other ale I brewed 2 weeks ago are fine.

Though we are having some worthwhile interludes in between on infection prevention, (and by all means, keep those interesting and informative posts coming), this thread is mainly about getting things back on track so I have to work out what to do next.

I really want to use 30lt fermenters as I have 23lt kegs and therefore should be putting about 25.5lts into the fermenter to allow for trub, easy handling (not scraping every last drop) and a few hydrometer readings/tastes which really need 200mls or more if you use a proper hydro jar.

I have one new 30lt fermenter and three old 25lt fermenters. I still want 4 fermenters though so I can brew big in this cooler weather and for next year's ABBD .

So, I'm not going to stuff around with the fermenter that has the current infection. I've had enough and I don't care what is causing the problem! So, that will get retired and I'll replace it with a new 30lt fermenter which costs $30.

But, your post interests me as I have never liked those fermenter seals. They are pretty crap I reckon. I have heaps of them accumulated and their lids as I have experimented with different lid configurations for closed transfers. (You can buy the lids plus seal for $5. But now that I am in a temporary state of not clinical but cleanliness depression and anxiety, I might find out if I can get silcone ones to replace them.

I mean the fermenter seals are crap. They are glued together and if you smell them, you can smell the rubber or whatever in them. They are certainly not ideal.

I'll let you know if I get lucky in finding a source or maybe I'll get Nev to look instead and then he can sell them and save me a hundred phone calls etc.

Having 2 new fermenters is the quickest and most economical way for me to get back on track now that I have finally got it into my head that the problem has always originated there. With these ones I now know to hit them with acid as well as alkaline and after tonight, I know that the steriliser I have been using is not as miraculous as it was made out to be.

With the other 3 fermenters, I'd like to be able to use them to perhaps store diluted cleaning chemicals in. In the two that I know are OK, maybe I can store cleaners/sanitisers that will still allow me to use them for the occasional brew. For the third fermenter which is dodgy, well I don't care what goes in that because it won't see a brew ever again.

So, this begs other questions that I have been unable to ever find clear cut answers to for any chemical with the exception of iodophour...

"How long can you store diluted chemical x for?"
"How many times can you re-use it?"
"Will the chemical work at room temperature?"

etc, etc etc.

What do you reckon Foles
Pat

P.S. I have to keg a beer tomorrow so am going to hit it with citric acid prior to assembly to hopefully get rid of some of the invisible inorganics that must have built up over all this time. Wish me luck!

Pat, I reckon take the seal out and dont use one at all! Thats what ive done. Does it "really" need to be completely airtight? the CO2 blanket will prevent anything getting to the beer anyway.

On a seperate note - I'm concerned about my plastic fermenter too. The last 2 beers I have done with it have come out cloudy/yeasty, start to clear after a couple pours, then go cloudy the next day repeating the cycle. Doesnt happen out of glass fermenter with the same yeast. Very strange, but probably only a coincedence!

Like you say, a new fermenter is cheap, so you can at least rule it out if it doesnt turn out to be the problem.

 

[raven19]

I think after a reoccurance of this beast at my place (lacto or some type of wild yeast I think) I shall re re-reading this thread I conveniently added to way back when.

I have a Scottish 70 Shilling Ale pitched with a 1968 Yeast Slurry from my fridge (my case swap beer..... fark!!!!!). The Slurry 'beer' ontop tasted fine, pitched straight after chilling, plenty of action and all good through primary. Took a sample two days ago, tasted good - but I foolishly removed the lid for a look-sie...

Tonight - two days after ramping from 18 to 20 (Gravity was down to 1006 by then) I checked and lo and behold I have a new layer of funky growth ontop of the beer. It looks nothing like the 1968 - and gravity is down nice and low so little fermentables left to have it kick off again (imo).

It is ripple like, green/white tinges thoughout. Its quite pretty actually, apart from the fact it is inside my farking fermentor! :angry:


Taken without flash


Taken with flash

Lesson learnt - I will never take the lid off a fermentor again during ferment!

Thoughts, comments?

 

[Hatchy]

Ask Fasty mate. He'd say to bottle it & drink it. Just don't swap it.

 

[marksfish]

Ask Fasty mate. He'd say to bottle it & drink it. Just don't swap it.

he would ask for advise first, then ignore it and then bottle it :icon_vomit:

 

[raven19]

Bumping with a side thought, after merely 2 days from last inspection of the brew (which appeared & tasted fine then - as it does now - when a sample was taken from the tap), can something like lacto kick in that quick?

Or is it possible than this is the original yeast making a comback after raising the temp those 2 degrees...?

Considering the CO2 blanket over the beer, alcohol present & bugger all residual sugar left... I'm not ditching this yet.

 

[manticle]

I think you should only ditch if it tastes revolting. If there's something, anything, add bugs and age for as long as you can in glass. Add stuff (oak, whicky, fruit, whatever) and be patient. You might make a great beer - just clean the smeg out of everything or reserve it for sours and get new stuff.

otherwise drink it quick before it turns.

 

[Dazza88]

Part of me is very glad to have read this and other part wishes i could have stayed in the "she'll be right mate" frame of mind.

I am bleaching all equipment before the next brew.

 

[marksfish]

lacto can be a dead set bitch, after having a keg full leak on the the carpet every beer seemed to taste like it. however i am paraniod about my beers on tap so this could be ignored!.

 

[raven19]

Thanks guys!

Manticle - I might even post something on babblebet tomorrow too.

Wont be ditching it and I have dregs to add if it is indeed funkified! (Nice low end bitterness so it could work in that regard)

It seems wierd it can kick off to such a degree over 48 hours, after its been happily fermenting as expected up till now.

25L batch = more sampling possible. I guess thats a good thing...

 

[manticle]

I think you should only ditch if it tastes revolting. If there's something, anything, add bugs and age for as long as you can in glass. Add stuff (oak, whicky, fruit, whatever)

Whicky = whisky

 

[rotten]

If you want to see what your yeast/brew is doing use gladwrap instead of the lid. OT.
I tried to fix my only ever infection, I just farked it up though so no advice to give there.

 

[raven19]

Yep, the old glad wrap may indeed need another whirl.

My fermentation fridge also needs a severe cleanup I suspect...

 

[jbirbeck]

I think after a reoccurance of this beast at my place (lacto or some type of wild yeast I think) I shall re re-reading this thread I conveniently added to way back when.

I have a Scottish 70 Shilling Ale pitched with a 1968 Yeast Slurry from my fridge (my case swap beer..... fark!!!!!). The Slurry 'beer' ontop tasted fine, pitched straight after chilling, plenty of action and all good through primary. Took a sample two days ago, tasted good - but I foolishly removed the lid for a look-sie...

Tonight - two days after ramping from 18 to 20 (Gravity was down to 1006 by then) I checked and lo and behold I have a new layer of funky growth ontop of the beer. It looks nothing like the 1968 - and gravity is down nice and low so little fermentables left to have it kick off again (imo).

It is ripple like, green/white tinges thoughout. Its quite pretty actually, apart from the fact it is inside my farking fermentor! :angry:

View attachment 41552
Taken without flash

View attachment 41551
Taken with flash

Lesson learnt - I will never take the lid off a fermentor again during ferment!

Thoughts, comments?

Looks like something I've had before...think I'd worked it out to be aceto but a lot of these bugs show similar skins...The infection I had that looked the same you could bottle from underneath without difficulties and the beer was good if you catch it quickly.

Otherwise add bugs and wait for a few months for a tasty sour.

 

[A3k]

Yeah, i had something that looked like that.
The beer tasted/smelt like nail polish mixed with vinegar. Made it's way to the lawn.

Either much worse than yours, or completely different though, as samples were unbearable.

Raven, did you notice any sour smell when you took the lid off?

Cheers,
Al

 

[TasChris]

I have found that poor fridge hygiene has been the definite starting point of one of my infections.
Using some sort of temp controller with the fridge leads to the fridge rising above the temp set point at which stage it turns itself on and works flat out till it reaches the correct temperature, and then it switches off.
As the temperature inside the fridge cools, moisture precipitates out of the air onto the surface of the keg or fermenter which will be several degrease cooler than the ambient air temp of the fridge due to thermal mass ( obviously this varies with how and where you have your temperature probe).
These droplets of water in the fridge now mix with all those splashes of wort and beer in the fridge that we all meant to clean up but never did and this mixture now is starting to warm and ferment until the next cooling cycle of the fridge begins again. If I dont open the door of my fridge the fridge can remain off for a considerable period (day/s) before it rises above the set point to fire the fridge up again.
Repeat this cycle again and again and it is no wonder that kegging and fermenting fridges all seem to get the most amazing blooms of molds and I am sure other evil lurgies, after all we are providing excellent environments to grow them, warmish, moist, dark and with a free source of food.
Opening the lid of the fermenter or keg whilst in fridge has to dramatically increase the chance of infection but then again some brewers successfully brew without lids or with a glad wrap covering.
Cleaning the fridge and airing it out from time to time has now become part of my cleaning regime. Every time I finish a keg or a finish fermenting I wipe down the inside of the fried and spray with a sanitiser.
Mind you I live in a place where everything grows mold!
Cheers
Chris

 

[raven19]

More excellent tips and points fellas - really appreciate the input.

Will rack from underneath tonight for sure. And will taste and smell with a bit more of a critique.

My fridge is certainly a biohazard atm, reinforcing my laziness there TasChris! I shall be giving it a good cleanout tonight. My ferment fridge is an old beast that pools the condensation in the bottom - and it has no drain hole. Certainly an ideal growing source for all things nasty.

 

[drsmurto]

Raven - are you able to get a sample to RK or Boston by tomorrow afternoon?

The BJCP study group is gathering tomorrow night and we could taste it for you and give you some of idea of what we may think it is. Coincides with the funky session so it may sit well against gueze, lambics etc h34r:

 

[raven19]

I am home after training tonight and brewing a replacement case swap beer tomorrow night at home. Will email re: a drop off of some.

 

[raven19]

So initial thoughts from the Adelaide BJCP study group were dusty & musty flavour, the sample of the top cropping was stinky but the thoughts were Mould.

Further more, after racking off the beer from underneath (and leaving the last 5L or so in the fermentor for a couple of days), I opened the lid to see the infection bigger than ever on top, and the fumes were strong vinegar - it almost took my head off! I have bottled a few beers and will transfer the remainder into a keg from secondary (headspace purged with CO2) soon.

If it was indeed mould, then I am hoping to save this brew, and worst case I shall lambic it up.

Most probable infection based on info and input from others in the know: Aceto (mould) bacteria infection on the surface of brew.

So I have nuked the fridge, let it air dry and cleaned the fermentor. Of note the fridge had some small black mould spots on the door lining which were easily cleaned up (but not noticed by myself until closer inspection). Note to make this a regular part of my cleaning regime.

The next brew is actively fermenting atm, and I wont be peeking under the lid this time!

If Wiki is to be believed, then I could get into Vinegar production! :icon_vomit:
Wiki Linky on Vinegar


Some more reference info from Palmer below.

Quote below taken from Palmers (Page Linky):
"Symptom: It smells like vinegar. Cause 1: Bacteria In this case, it probably is. Aceto bacteria (vinegar producing) and Lacto bacteria (lactic acid producing) are common contaminates in breweries. Sometimes the infection will produce sweet smells like malt vinegar, other times they will produce cidery smells. It will depend on which bug is living in your wort. Aceto bacteria often produce ropy strands of jelly which can be a good visual indicator, as can excessive cloudiness, after several weeks in the fermentor (although some cloudiness is not unusual, especially in all-grain beers).
Cure: If you don't like the taste, then pour it out. Lactic infections are desired in some beer styles."