I Have No End Of Boil Floc. Biab Will I Be Ok?

[manticle]

It is a forum. You made a point. I made another one.

Nothing personal. The suggestion that whirlfloc affects IBU is nothing I've heard or experienced before and needs some clarification. I wouldn't be taking it personally.

 

[chefeffect]

It is a forum. You made a point. I made another one.

Nothing personal. The suggestion that whirlfloc affects IBU is nothing I've heard or experienced before and needs some clarification. I wouldn't be taking it personally.

Ok then. I'm not going to be baited into an argument. That one dude on a radio station has some very intelligent guests, and the post was for people to listen too if they want, if not that's fine.

 

[manticle]

For the record, I wasn't trying to bait you into anything.

I will listen to the radio show at lesiure BUT my question was as to whether there was any other information out there suggesting the same thing (besides the radio show).

I'm the last guy on here who wants to argue about brewing. Discuss - yes.

I think you may have misunderstood my intention.

 

[chefeffect]

I may have misunderstood your intention, your comments on two different threads at the same time may have caused my reaction also. Not too worry I appreciate your response, it was late and not a big deal.

 

[manticle]

Cheers

 

[Truman42]

I'm the last guy on here who wants to argue about brewing. Discuss - yes.

+ 1 to that.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

screw that - i want to argue..

when break happens, it takes IBUs out of solution with it
kettle finings make more break happen

draw conclusions at will

 

[marksfish]

if you believe kettle finnings take ibus along with the hot break and you think that you can taste the difference just add more hops.

 

[black_labb]

Wouldn't the alpha acid drop out with the trub wether it drops out in the kettle or in the fermentor. Either way they don't get in the beer. Thats if they do stick to trub at all

 

[flano]

I forgot once and couldn't tell the dif....not during the brewing , the fermenting or the drinking.

end result.

 

[manticle]

screw that - i want to argue..

when break happens, it takes IBUs out of solution with it
kettle finings make more break happen

Hey Thirsty - have you got a link to more info (measured amounts etc)?

Interested mainly from a brewing science/nerd perspective.

 

[Maheel]

does this mean the offending brew will be WAYYYYYY more bitter, should i just tip it down the drain and burn the cube as an offering ?

it seems in the past i would have lost so many potential IBU's to the break that this beer will be crazy bitter

i'm kind of scared my lips will pucker up and never ever relax again :unsure:

 

[chefeffect]

does this mean the offending brew will be WAYYYYYY more bitter, should i just tip it down the drain and burn the cube as an offering ?

Yeah its screwed! I will come over and help you pour it into my keg, I promise to pour it on my compost when I get home..

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Hey Thirsty - have you got a link to more info (measured amounts etc)?

Interested mainly from a brewing science/nerd perspective.

All the brewing texts - significant amounts of alpha acid being removed as break forms is simply a well known, well documented occurance.

Which is why if you want maximum utilisation, you add your hops after you have been boiling for a little bit and the majority of your break has formed - a well know and often practised brewing technique that does make a measurable and tastable difference.

And also why you get lower utilisation out of first wort hops than you would get out of hops added to already boiling wort. The alpha acids are dissolved in the wort when much less break has already occured, thus more is stripped out as the break occurs.

How much difference between using kettle finings and not?? Probably bugger all, finings increase break, but not by all that much. Maybe it would increase the stripping by a few percent.... so a few % of say 25% or thereabouts? I believe the point was that if you are trying for the most possible utilisation, or the bitterest possible wort - kettle finings would be a reducing factor. And indeed it would.

 

[Ross]

Which is why if you want maximum utilisation, you add your hops after you have been boiling for a little bit and the majority of your break has formed - a well know and often practised brewing technique that does make a measurable and tastable difference.
And also why you get lower utilisation out of first wort hops than you would get out of hops added to already boiling wort. The alpha acids are dissolved in the wort when much less break has already occured, thus more is stripped out as the break occurs.

So are programmes like Beersmith incorrect when they increase the alpha for FWH?

cheers Ross

 

[manticle]

All the brewing texts - significant amounts of alpha acid being removed as break forms is simply a well known, well documented occurance.

Which is why if you want maximum utilisation, you add your hops after you have been boiling for a little bit and the majority of your break has formed - a well know and often practised brewing technique that does make a measurable and tastable difference.

Ok now I'm with you. I have read that but obviously it needs re-cementing in my thick skull. I always boil for 15-30 mins before adding hops to allow good break formation.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

So are programmes like Beersmith incorrect when they increase the alpha for FWH?

cheers Ross

Well, Pro-mash reduces it (by default) and I think it should. So yes, I think the other way is wrong.

 

[Nick JD]

Brewing Science and Practice (p339) says 10-20% of the hot break are "bittering substances", none in the cold break.

What that actually means is anyone's guess - I couldn't be bothered reading the surrounding text.

 

[Helles]

I'd really love to see a further explanation and some extra evidence for what one bloke says on a radio show before I give it any credence when it comes to adjusting my recipes.

Whirlfoc strips IBU? Maybe it does.

Noticeably in my wort?

I'm not convinced.

I agree with Manticle I will not notice any difference in IBU's in my beer
Although they say there is no distinct difference of 5 IBU's to the palate

 

[MHB]

Hops must be the most misunderstood part of brewing, personally I think all the calculators are Voodoo and at best give pretty rough approximations, the big brewers mostly use a large amount of experience backed up by good lab reports to get accurate IBU results.
If you have made the same beer in the same brewery using the same hops (POR for example, alpha only moves around % or so from year to year) a couple of thousand times, then measure the **** out of every batch; you are going to be able to say with a great deal of confidence what your utilisation is going to be.

We as home brewers rarely make the same beer twice running; we use a vast range of hops, wildly varying wort gravities and hop additions ranging anywhere from miserly to ridiculously, no big surprise that we rarely know precisely what we are ending up with.

I have posted this before but its well worth reading The HBD Palexperiment Results
When 40 brewers brew are asked to brew the same beer with the same hops the range IBUs looked like this

The results for the best calculator were a bit of a surprise to. None of the well known calculators could be regarded as giving the Right answer, big ups Randy.
Just to make it more interesting, IBUs are measured in finished beer, even if you could calculate the exact end of boil bitterness, both Alpha and Isoalpha acids stick to everything, fermenters, flocking agents, trub and yeast included, the bigger your yeast pitch the more isoalpha you will pull out of your beer (no Im not suggesting you under pitch) to the point there can be a 30% variation in the IBU of the same wort brewed under different conditions.
Like I said its all Voodoo, do your calculations, brew your beer and just ask yourself if your beer is bittered the way you want it and adjust accordingly next time.
Mark