I dont understand HERMS - but I want to

[philistine]

Hey Beer Dudes,
I've been wanting to set up a radical super geek-out over the top brew rig for ages, but the reality is - I cant afford it.
BUT, I would like to slowly upgrade a few things here and there to help me improve my technique and update my very basic 3-tier gravity powered, gas fired HLT, single infusion esky mash tun, gas fired keggle set up a little bit to help improve things like consistency and especially mash temp control etc.
So Ive started thinking about a HERMS system - or at least, incorporating components of a HERMS.
Now, my understanding of the HERMS process and the kit needed is very limited, but Im googling the shit out of it and reading a bunch of stuff and drooling over a bunch of stuff and Ive hit my first decision point -
Should I make an electric HLT with the herms Heat Exchange coil contained within, or should I make a much smaller dedicated external HERMS heat exchange thing...
Any opinions on the the pros and cons of either?
My only (uneducated) opinion on the matter is that I get the impression that option one probably better suits double batches and larger volumes of water - whereas option 2 (might) better suit my usual 20 odd litre batches (fermenter volume)....

any ideas or comments would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

First up, why do you want a HERMS...

Better to have a think and see what part of a HERMS setup your aiming at in your process

HERMS can be really good for step mashing, but if its just a single temp mash then you dont really need one

HERMS can also be beneficial of your fly sparging

 

[Mardoo]

There's a great thread about HERMS modelling started by Adr_0. That one specifically addresses external HEX vs one in the HLT. It pretty much lands on the side of external due to temp overshoots with internal HEX coils. That said, I know plenty of folks who make great beer with an internal coil. You can size the external HEX to your system according to batch size, and the thread addresses that too. Internal coil eliminates an extra heating element and vessel.

The first process change you can add is getting an OTS electric heater so you can do step mashes, if that's of interest to you. That way you can heat the mash in the tun as long as you don't touch the plastic.

If you're willing to go slow you can pick up all the bits on here and eBay for very little money, but it will still come in well north of $500.

Take the time to read the dedicated HERMS thread. I learned more from that than anything else. The way ideas about processes and equipment change in the course of the thread is a good education into how to think about your build.

 

[timmi9191]

There is no one perfect answer, there are pros and cons to every decision. Some will say one piece of kit better and others will disagree.

For me, electric HLT is best as I can control the temp more accurately via a STC-1000. Again for me, the HERMS coil should be separate to the HLT. This has the benefit of quicker ramp times due the smaller volume in a dedicated heat exchange unit, plus the sparge water can be heated independent of your mash temp. I use this set up for double batch, with the ability to do triple batch.

If you list or put pics of your current set up, we might be able to offer some simple upgrade suggestions.

 

[Nibbo]

This is how I set up my HERMs. You will find prettier set ups but mine works so I'm happy with it.
I have a 100 litre Esky mash tun and I just use this coil stuffed into a Kmart kettle which is controlled via a temp controller. The HERMS circulation is ran by a kaxion pump and I have the temp sensor placed at the mash tun inlet. The lines are silicone which just pop on and off the stainless barbs I have when I need to move them. It's not pretty but it's a low cost option and works well.
My HLT is 120 litres in size and would not be efficient to run the HERMs unit.
The pic below is from the weekend after giving the system a flush out as it hasn't been used in a while.

 

[droid]

HERMS is good for a single temp mash as well, yes it is great for stepping up the temperature but equally good for holding it plus the benefit of the wort being actively filtered as well as mash out

 

[JDW81]

What are you trying to achieve? A HERMS system won't make better beer or improve your brewing technique. Things like recipe design, temp control, pH control and yeast health ad increasing your knowledge around the important aspects of brewing science will do more for your beer than a flash system ever can.

If you want to be able to step mash, then you don't necessarily need a HERMS either. Get a cheap over the side element for your MLT and use that to raise your mash temps (far easier than fannying about with more plumbing, coils and electriity).

If you really want to upgrade to a recirculating system, then go for it, but have a think about what you're trying to do, then compare that to the cost and then decide if it is really worth the effort.

JD

P.S. I run a RIMS 3v system, however it hasn't made my beer any better than my old 3v gravity system, just a bit more streamlined.

 

[philistine]

Thanks for the input guys!
Im certainly under no delusion that better kit makes better beer!
Id have to say the main reason Im looking at HERMS is to help control certain variables... Im aiming for:
-better temp control
-easier/more accurate step mashes
-a more streamlined process
-a rad way to geek out

I'd also really like to be able to do recirculating mashes.

Re; Using an immersion heater in the mash to do step mashes, I know its been tried and tested, but I dont like the idea. The main problem I see with that is thermal stratification, which would require recirculation to eliminate and I also dont want an element in contact with my mash.


Mardoo - Thanks, I'll suss out that thread you mentioned by Adr_0. It sounds like exactly the kind of thing to trawl through

Timmi9191 - My set up is dead basic.
Its just a 3-tier wooden rig with an inbuilt gas wok-burner I scavanged out of an old bbq at the top tier to heat strike water/sparge water. Being gravity assisted, I can do batch or fly sparging easily enough.
Second level is a basic beveridge cooler esky with a false bottom made from a coincidently perfectly sized sieve and some braided steel hose
Third level is a standard gas ring burner with a keggle.
I think the main improvement I want to make, like I said above, is to change things in a way that gives me much better temp control. ie. a temp controller like an STC or PID controlling an electrice element somehwere in the works.

Nibbo; Your set up is basically the exact same principle I'm aiming for and in considering that idea, I started wondering what the alternatives were (ie. heat exchange in a big HLT)

 

[timmi9191]

My suggestions FWIW:

HLT - add element such as kegking or from a kmart kettle if you are or know an electrician. Control temp with an stc-1000 and circulate with a LBP. the LBP can also help with transfer to MLT and for sparging.

MLT - get or make a coil and use a kmart kettle as the heat exchange unit. Use STC-1000 to control temp of MLT. LBP or kegking pump depending on your budget for recirculating.

 

[klangers]

Try a decoction mash first.

My "HERMS" (I detest this acronym as it makes something sound more complicated than it is - all mash tuns are heated in industry!) is just a stainless still coil which dangles into my hot liquor tun (electric urn). I just set the temperature of the urn, and it works just as well. Then, when i mash out, the hot liquor is at sparging temp.

It's really not that complicated, unless you want it to be.

 

[TheWiggman]

Hey Beer Dudes,
I've been wanting to set up a radical super geek-out over the top brew rig for ages, but the reality is - I cant afford it.
BUT, I would like to slowly upgrade a few things here and there...

This about says it all. I enjoyed constructing and customising my system as much as I enjoy the brewing process, so I can relate. Some people do up cars when they could just buy something modern and cheaper. At the end of the day you'll get where you want to go, but that's not why you do it.

Regarding what you should make, I'll be predictable and suggest the same as my system - a separate HERMS coil as linked above from onlinebrewingsupplies (option 2). I tried the method of using the HLT (option 1), but found the HERMS coil more elegant and user-friendly. You can make a similar system yourself if you want using copper pipe and a pot, just be wary of vessel volumes and power.
If you did want to do larger brew volumes you could add a second coil, custom build you own with a longer coil, or just add more power ensuring you have enough flow. So don't skimp on the pump with a larger system.

 

[Mardoo]

Hers the thread on HEX modelling:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/index.php?/topic/87369-Getting-the-most-out-of-PID-Control---Modelling-HLT-1V%2C-RIMS-and-HERMS/page__view__findpost__p__1303224

 

[Bribie G]

BIAB in an urn can produce award winning beers, do step mashes almost as a trivial side process but unfortunately for some brewers isn't geeky enough. Enjoy your pids and arduinos whatever they are :super:

 

[Camo6]

BIAB in an urn can produce award winning beers, do step mashes almost as a trivial side process but unfortunately for some brewers isn't geeky enough. Enjoy your pids and arduinos whatever they are :super:

Hardly unfortunate. Why, if it wasn't for these pro-active brewers thinking outside the square, we wouldn't have the likes of BIAB, no-chill, Braumeisters etc. But you're right. This constant need to evolve often makes me ponder:


My vote goes to the separate vessel HERMS. A little bit more versatile and the good man ADRO seems to have done the math to give it the thumbs up. My advice is to read as many associated threads until you get your head around it, then worry about what you need to buy. I slowly procured the bits and pieces for my 4v HERMS while maintaining a simple BIAB setup on an Italian spiral burner which was then integrated into the new system. Don't hesitate to send PM's to other brewers as this is where a lot of the real knowledge gets shared on AHB.

 

[GalBrew]

BIAB in an urn can produce award winning beers, do step mashes almost as a trivial side process but unfortunately for some brewers isn't geeky enough. Enjoy your pids and arduinos whatever they are :super:

Another example of obsession over trivial increases in precision. Go buy a grainfather or a BM and save yourself months/years or heartache.

 

[MartinOC]

Another example of obsession over trivial increases in precision. Go buy a grainfather or a BM and save yourself months/years or heartache.

Yeah, good point, but then you lose the fun in the tinkering.

Case-in-point: When I was planning a complete rebuild of my system after a 10-year hiaitus, I just cobbled-together a few pots & a plastic bucket wrapped in a blanket as my MLT. The whole thing (3-tier gravity) was made out of stacked milk crates. I just ran an old recipe through it to find-out where I was.

Result: 1st place in Vicbrew - Porter.

More reading & thinking & rebuilding later (STC's, pumps..etc...etc....), I've got a system that I STILL want to tinker-with.

Will it make better beer? Nope! But it'll make my brew-day easier.

Great beer is made in your head, not the gear.

EDIT: Sorry, got a bit OT there..... I currently run a 2400W element in a dedicated HEX (roughly 2.5L) with an STC to control it & had great results. I'll go programmable step-mash PID one day....

 

[manticle]

Building shit is fun guys.
We make our own beer.
Some like to make their own system, be it an urnie biab, ghetto esky tun and keggle like mine or fancy super auto shiny like jonathan or husky.
Homemade can be cobbled together or schmik

 

[GalBrew]

Yeah, good point, but then you lose the fun in the tinkering.

Case-in-point: When I was planning a complete rebuild of my system after a 10-year hiaitus, I just cobbled-together a few pots & a plastic bucket wrapped in a blanket as my MLT. The whole thing (3-tier gravity) was made out of stacked milk crates. I just ran an old recipe through it to find-out where I was.

Result: 1st place in Vicbrew - Porter.

More reading & thinking & rebuilding later (STC's, pumps..etc...etc....), I've got a system that I STILL want to tinker-with.

Will it make better beer? Nope! But it'll make my brew-day easier.

Great beer is made in your head, not the gear.

EDIT: Sorry, got a bit OT there..... I currently run a 2400W element in a dedicated HEX (roughly 2.5L) with an STC to control it & had great results. I'll go programmable step-mash PID one day....

See I just found the more fancy my system got the bigger pain in the ass it became and the less I used it. PIDs and HERMS setups did not simplify my brew day and I rarely used it to step mash.

And....you won without all the bullshit attached to Tor system!

I would rather tinker with recipes or fermentation rather than altering my system for the billionth time.
Been there, done that!

 

[manticle]

Yes but you are one brewer of many galbrew.

 

[GalBrew]

Takes all kinds right??