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I can't bleach it's not StarSan

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GalBrew

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The worst aspect of bleach is that if you don't rinse it completely off it will ruin your beer, flavour wise. Also there is Saniclean for those of you who want a low foam version of StarSan.
 

butisitart

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I think the concentration for food safe is around 15ml for 4 liters, which is call it 4ml / l so 5L will make 1,250L of the stuff. That makes it 12c a Liter. Compared to a no rinse, food safe, acid based, non corrosive sanitiser that costs 17c L.... my mind boggles at the sheer stubbornness of some
it's so cheap i've never bothered to measure it per L (although that's obviously a major factor on this thread).
i've been measuring it at 6-7 droplets for a brew day, and i've apparently been wasting it cos i can re-use it LOL.
so i can extend the use of a 250ml ish bottle to about a decade, comfortably.
with the money i save, i can afford more hops
 

paulyg

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Hello fellow drinkers

Some of you regulars will remember my posts in regard to using chlorine at various dilutions as a disinfectant. To say I was hounded about this is an understatement. Almost without exception, what everybody said was correct. I am on a learning trail at the moment. The purpose of this post is not to go on about chlorine, however I still use it in certain circumstances and it has many benefits.

Many talked about the Star San and other similar products and I recall my reply was that to use it at the dose rate recommended on the bottle, and to have my fermenters exposed to that ratio for one minute, i.e. 60 L fermenters, makes this option extremely expensive. I was then advised, and again I believe correctly so, that I do not need to fill the entire 60 L fermenter and leave it sit for one minute and that I just needed to wet the surfaces and allow that to sit for one minute.

The same principled discussion was used in relation to disinfecting kegs and bottles and several people said the same thing and the point of this post is, that I was advised I can disinfect a bottle, then pour that into another bottle, and pour that into another bottle and so on. It is reasonable to assume that same principle could be applied to kegs. My point, and I can hear everybody say, for crying out loud get to the bloody point is that, how many times can you do this before the star San becomes in effective? Further, how do you know at what point it becomes ineffective.

At least with chlorine, and I’m not promoting this at all but just making the point, the nose knows when it is ineffective. The same applies to sodium Metabisulphite. So I guess I am saying that I am not sold on star San unless somebody has an answer for me and given the amount of implements that need sanitising and I am one of those wankers that if I am told 10 mil per litre is sufficient, I will do 20 mills per litre to be sure …!!! I am planning now on getting a 20 kg bag of sodium metabisulphite ($50), which also is a “non-rinse” solution and does not have the corrosive effects that chlorine does on the alloy kegs. I would be interested in people’s opinions on this plan of attack. Now remember, we are all friends here, and we must take turns in the sandpit and play nicely together, or Miss will get grumpy at us and we might get spanked!!!.
So after reading all this, I'm pretty keen to know what you have decided to use?
 

butisitart

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one thing i DID learn off this thread is the using it as a spray - i'm currently 2/3 through a 1L ethanol sanitizer which i use when i couldn't be arsed mixing up some starsan, eg sanitising stirbars when everything else is already sanitised. but that IS expensive (about $10L) and lasts me less than a year. so when this one runs out, i'll re-fill with starsan solution at a billionth of the cost.
 

kadmium

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I use the ethyl too, cause its almost instant.

But yeah I'll probably take my own advice and go back to using starsan
 

peterlonz

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Kadmium, please stop the BS & deliberate mis-representation. Its unworthy of this forum.
I use bleach, always have. Yes I also have Iodophor & Starsan.
I have sought only to present a working reliable alternative & I have attempted to be fair.

Regarding the question of dilution of bleach, I generally just go 50:50 with cold tapwater, about one cupful of each.
Regarding rinsing,I thought almost all brewers by now were using filtered water so using cold filtered tapwater to rinse out the chlorine seems a straightforward proposition.
If you don't have that,don't use bleach or use hot tap which should be stored typically at 65 to 70 C & therefore draw off can be expected to be sanitary.
If new brewers find this confusing - Use StarSan because it has no drawbacks except cost which it seems is not so bad as I had thought.
 

Nullnvoid

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Kadmium, please stop the BS & deliberate mis-representation. Its unworthy of this forum.
I use bleach, always have. Yes I also have Iodophor & Starsan.
I have sought only to present a working reliable alternative & I have attempted to be fair.

Regarding the question of dilution of bleach, I generally just go 50:50 with cold tapwater, about one cupful of each.
Regarding rinsing,I thought almost all brewers by now were using filtered water so using cold filtered tapwater to rinse out the chlorine seems a straightforward proposition.
If you don't have that,don't use bleach or use hot tap which should be stored typically at 65 to 70 C & therefore draw off can be expected to be sanitary.
If new brewers find this confusing - Use StarSan because it has no drawbacks except cost which it seems is not so bad as I had thought.
How much do you buy bleach for and in what quantity?
 

Paddy Melon

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Hi Guys, I'm sure some of you would have heard this podcast. It's an interview with the guy who developed StarSan. He puts Bleach and StarSan into perspective and answers all of the above questions, misnomers and fraudulent representations. After that you make up your own mind which to chose. Just highlight the link below and open it.

 

kadmium

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Kadmium, please stop the BS & deliberate mis-representation. Its unworthy of this forum.
I use bleach, always have. Yes I also have Iodophor & Starsan.
I have sought only to present a working reliable alternative & I have attempted to be fair.

Regarding the question of dilution of bleach, I generally just go 50:50 with cold tapwater, about one cupful of each.
Regarding rinsing,I thought almost all brewers by now were using filtered water so using cold filtered tapwater to rinse out the chlorine seems a straightforward proposition.
If you don't have that,don't use bleach or use hot tap which should be stored typically at 65 to 70 C & therefore draw off can be expected to be sanitary.
If new brewers find this confusing - Use StarSan because it has no drawbacks except cost which it seems is not so bad as I had thought.
Please explain where I misrepresented anything, and as far as BS, you alleged I did not read your post regarding bleach. I am not sure how much more can be explained further than, bleach corrodes stainless steel which is what got OP into strife in the first place. So, not sure why you would continue to advocate for it.

Secondly, filtered water doesn't necessary mean sanitary. Nor does water that's 60c. So if there is any misrepresentation, its stating that Bleach is better than purpose made, no rinse acid based sanitisers.

Oh, and mixing it at a ratio of 1:1 is faaaaaaaar higher than the recommended safe usage for sanitation of fresh fruit and vegetables, which is 100ppm or 100 parts per million. About 15ml in 4 litres.

Not sure where you think I misrepresented anything, but a mix of 1:1 bleach to water is definitely not something you should recommend. I would love to know where you got your ratios from?

Here is a link stating RO water should not be your primary means of removing bacteria and organisms from your water

Here is a link from Foodstandards.gov.au stating bleach should be used at 25ml to 10L of water

So please, show how you represented a 1:1 ratio as not misleading.

If you don't agree with my position that's fine, but resorting to name calling, alleging I am misrepresenting my position, and then calling it 'BS' without substantiating anything is childish at best.

Edit: Oh, and tap water is stored at 60c or above to prevent bacterial growth or legionaries, but is then tempered with cold water and by law is not to be hotter than 50c, well below the pasteurisation temp for water -> as can be seen here
 
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GrumpyPaul

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Ok children...

Don't make me put my moderator boots on.

State your case, post your links even disagree. But do it respectfully.

There's obviously options. What's best, or better, probably comes down to opinion or personal preference.

Please tone it down, enough with the allegations of BS and name calling.
 

Nullnvoid

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Ok children...

Don't make me put my moderator boots on.

State your case, post your links even disagree. But do it respectfully.

There's obviously options. What's best, or better, probably comes down to opinion or personal preference.

Please tone it down, enough with the allegations of BS and name calling.
Ohh what?? You got a free fermentation vessel from KK AND some moderator boots???? Man, you are so lucky!
 

djebel

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Edit: Oh, and tap water is stored at 60c or above to prevent bacterial growth or legionaries, but is then tempered with cold water and by law is not to be hotter than 50c, well below the pasteurisation temp for water -> as can be seen here
That's rule only applies to bathroom taps. showers, etc. Kitchen, laundry, pretty much anywhere else is allowed to be full temperature. Some builders just install a single tempering valve at the outlet of the HWS to save $$$.
 

philrob

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I think we have gone far enough in this debate. Both sides have had a fair go at stating their positions, and I don't see that anything more will be useful.
GrumpyPaul is just doing what any moderator on any forum should do. No need to have a go at him.
If it continues with personal arguments, we'll just lock the thread.
 

Nullnvoid

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I think we have gone far enough in this debate. Both sides have had a fair go at stating their positions, and I don't see that anything more will be useful.
GrumpyPaul is just doing what any moderator on any forum should do. No need to have a go at him.
If it continues with personal arguments, we'll just lock the thread.
Sorry if you think I was having a go. The only crime I committed was attempting "Witty banter"
 

fdsaasdf

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Arguing over the merits of StarSan makes me feel like it's 2010 again.😂
Yep, anyone advocating bleach is simply ignorant to the facts that bleach is damaging/contaminating to brewing equipment, less effective and likely more expensive.

It is also incredibly damaging to the environment. But I guess that also doesn't matter to some people.
 

kadmium

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Yep, anyone advocating bleach is simply ignorant to the facts that bleach is damaging/contaminating to brewing equipment, less effective and likely more expensive.

It is also incredibly damaging to the environment. But I guess that also doesn't matter to some people.
Careful, you will be accused of being ignorant, full of BS and misleading if you don't drink bleach. I mean use bleach. Star San? More like SatanSan (sarcasm)
 
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