How to fix horrible efficiency

[Nizmoose]

My technique for hitting around 75-80% efficiency is;
mill to more or less flour, 90 minute mash and stir like buggery multiple times during the mash
Mash out at 76-78°C for 10 minutes, then hang the bag above a bucket and squeeze it like it owes you money
I brew in a keggle and usually mash in with 33L of water that I filter slowly from the tap through a caravan water filter, then leave to evaporate off the chlorine over night, just covered with my BIAB bag so bugs don't crawl in
I was having pretty average efficiency (65ish%) for a while there while using a bag of JW Ale, but a newer batch has gone back to high 70's every time

yeah mate,
I was having similar issues about a year ago.
I bought a grain mill and haven't looked back.
Like spork said you can practically mill it to flour.
Ill do a 60min mash then mash out at 78c.
Then hang the bag and squeeze it til the wort has reached boil.

I recently hit 1.082 with all grain (no dme) using this method. 75-80% efficiency

Thinking about converting a mop bucket with the squeezer bit to take out the manual labour / sticky arms.
good luck

I'm so incredibly far from an expert and spork has been around a while and knows what he's doing but I can't help but remember when James Spencer (basic Brewing) had a chat to Pat Hollingdale about BIAB and Pat mentioning that milling to a flour is unnecessary and and potentially detrimental ( I have a feeling those milling to a flour see no such detriment anecdotally). I have been hovering around the 75% mark for a while now but have always mashed for 60 minutes give or take with a 10 minute mash out, On the weekend I tried doing a much longer mash of 54C for 20 minutes, 64c for 30 minutes, 68C for 30 minutes and then a 78c mashout for 10 minutes and achieved 85% mash efficiency. I use pre-milled grain from the LHBS and have never mentioned BIAB so the crush is what would be considered normal for someone using a traditional method.
I attribute the amount of time (90 minutes plus about 20 minutes of ramp time) plus perhaps the 54C rest allowing starches to become more soluble and available before the sacc temp was reached (I cant remember if the 54C rest was for protein or gelatinization but I'm pretty sure gelatinization happens around 55C making starches more soluble? Not sure if Im correct there, manticle?). If you're able to, see if a mash in at 54-55C for 15-20 minutes followed by at least an hour at your chosen Sacc. temp makes any difference. Having said that your initial process didnt seem to be all that bad.

 

[sp0rk]

I dunno, it works for me and has for friends so I came to the conclusion that it's not necessarily a bad thing
YMMV

 

[Nizmoose]

I dunno, it works for me and has for friends so I came to the conclusion that it's not necessarily a bad thing
YMMV

Yeah I think its one of those things where people recommend against something only because there might be a possible slight risk that something moderately bad that may or may not be noticeable probably wont happen. Definitely not advising against a fine crush just thought I'd mention some of the other possibilities

 

[manticle]

(I cant remember if the 54C rest was for protein or gelatinization but I'm pretty sure gelatinization happens around 55C making starches more soluble? Not sure if Im correct there, manticle?). If you're able to, see if a mash in at 54-55C for 15-20 minutes followed by at least an hour at your chosen Sacc. temp makes any difference. Having said that your initial process didnt seem to be all that bad.

On the right track but not quite correct. Gelatinisation of barley malt happens around mash temps. In order for saccharification to take place (conversion of starch to sugar) gelatinisation needs to occur first but since these temp ranges are close, that's easy for brewing. However for gelatinisation to occur, hydration needs to occur first. If you mash in at sub-gelatinisation temps, the grist is hydrated and seems to be much less likely to clump (in my and others experience). Possibly the lack of clumping helps provide equal hydrating access more quickly, in turn leading to thorough gelatinisation and therefore saccharification - I'm hypothesising but it makes sense.

The 55 deg rest (I only ever do 5 mins) is about the highest end of a protein rest range and bookended with a 10 minute 72 degree rest (glycoprotein) produces a lovely, moussy head in the finished beer

 

[Nizmoose]

On the right track but not quite correct. Gelatinisation of barley malt happens around mash temps. In order for saccharification to take place (conversion of starch to sugar) gelatinisation needs to occur first but since these temp ranges are close, that's easy for brewing. However for gelatinisation to occur, hydration needs to occur first. If you mash in at sub-gelatinisation temps, the grist is hydrated and seems to be much less likely to clump (in my and others experience). Possibly the lack of clumping helps provide equal hydrating access more quickly, in turn leading to thorough gelatinisation and therefore saccharification - I'm hypothesising but it makes sense.

The 55 deg rest (I only ever do 5 mins) is about the highest end of a protein rest range and bookended with a 10 minute 72 degree rest (glycoprotein) produces a lovely, moussy head in the finished beer

Brilliant thanks manticle I knew you'd clean that up nicely. To summarize would you suggest a short rest at a lower temp whilst technically being a protein rest would also allow for hydration of the grain and therefore passively serve two purposes?

 

[manticle]

Yes, that's my understanding and experience.

 

[Adr_0]

On the crush...

Would a finer crush give a 15% gain in efficiency? As long as each kernel is split open and the endosperm is broken up, I though the difference was a few%. This is what I though the coarse vs fine extract % represented on a malty datasheet.

The mash out thins the liquor to allow it to draw out of the grains easier. In this regard, it will make a significant difference to efficiency if the grain is pulled out before the sugars can drain out well.

If the conversion isn't complete, the sugars won't fully be there to start with, which well knock a decent chunk out of your efficiency. If you're time poor, pH adjustment will be needed.

Otherwise, as people above have said you probable need to add 15min to your mash, 15min to your mash out (makers sure it's actually hitting 78) and even sparge a bit if you can.

I assume whence you take hydrometer measurements you correct forward temperature? Warm samples will be thinner, ie lower in SG, and need to be corrected.