Sparge/Efficiency issues

[Jack of all biers]

Hmm. Well the update is not great I'm afraid. The next batch was efficiency of 62% fly sparge/single decoction method. The latest batch I tried to get back to basics and did a batch sparge and followed some advise from those on this forum and that from Jamil and Palmer on their radio feed. Temp control on the sparge water wasn't ideal, but I managed to get it in the mash tun to be 73C (first runnings) and 74C (second). I measured the sparge additions to equate to a 32 L pre-boil. I sparged at apprx 1 L/min and ended up with 54% efficiency. The problem I believe is that I am leaving a lot of the sugars in the mash tun as the final runnings was 1030.

My doppel bock (target OG 1072) will turn out to be a bock (1060) and I'm ok with that, but the fact that so much flavour is being left behind dents the confidence/pride a bit. I checked my set up prior to starting and thought all was tight (spanner tight) re run off tube connection/false bottom tight to base, but after the sparge was complete I tilted the mash tun with the tap open and more wort ran out (only when tilted). So I think the wort is being partially suctioned out of the run off tube connection about 1.5 inches above the base of the mash tun. I think this reduces the effectiveness of the hydrodynamics from the single centre point suction that it is supposed to create.

I will ask Wayne from Beer Belly next time I'm out that way if I am doing something wrong in set up or am missing something, but in the mean time does anyone have any experience with Beer belly mash tuns. Specifically experiencing issues with falsebottom/run off tube connection problems.

 

[Camo6]

If your MT has a central pickup and flows when you tilt it I'd say you're on the money with a poor fitting. Have you got the ferrules installed the correct way? Are they 12mm or 12.7mm fittings?
I don't think this would be the cause of your efficiency woes but it will help. So many variables at play. Even the brand of grain you use can have a big affect on efficiency. Crush, PH, channeling, insulative properties, volumes... the list goes on. Keep trying simple recipes making small changes at a time.
Do you use brew software? Once setup properly, Beersmith will give you a lot of accuracy in predicting targets or detecting when they're out. And when it comes down to it, repeatability is far more important than efficiency but I know how it can be to want to get to the bottom of it.


Edit: try a search for compression fitting o rings. Pretty sure someone had success swapping ferrules for silicon o rings.

 

[antiphile]

I'm assuming (and hoping) you're talking about brewhouse efficiency and not mash efficiency.

Do you run into or approach stuck sparges as well? How confident are you about thermometer accuracy?

 

[Grainer]

Not sure why your doing the 52 deg step

 

[dicko]

Crush your grain finer and see what happens.
If using the LHBS they may have changed the mill setting or with any mill the adjustment may slip out of adjustment without your knowledge.
I sometimes crush grain for another brewer in my area and he reports a higher efficiency when it is crushed on my mill to when he buys it pre crushed.....not as much as your figures though.

 

[Jack of all biers]

If your MT has a central pickup and flows when you tilt it I'd say you're on the money with a poor fitting. Have you got the ferrules installed the correct way? Are they 12mm or 12.7mm fittings?
I don't think this would be the cause of your efficiency woes but it will help. So many variables at play. Even the brand of grain you use can have a big affect on efficiency. Crush, PH, channeling, insulative properties, volumes... the list goes on. Keep trying simple recipes making small changes at a time.
Do you use brew software? Once setup properly, Beersmith will give you a lot of accuracy in predicting targets or detecting when they're out. And when it comes down to it, repeatability is far more important than efficiency but I know how it can be to want to get to the bottom of it.


Edit: try a search for compression fitting o rings. Pretty sure someone had success swapping ferrules for silicon o rings.

There are two parts to the olives (ferrules) and they are installed as they came when purchased. They appear to be the correct way around. I measured the internals of the olives and I think they are 12.7mm, but I only have access to a measuring tape, so accuracy?

I doubt anything to do with the mash is the issue to such an extreme extent (ie grain/crush/pH), as there was so much residual malt left in the mash tun (1030 final runnings). This tells me its more about the sparge than the mash. For the record grains(Weyermann), crush (beer belly), pH (5-5.5). I use two thermometers (one installed in the mash tun (fairly certain is accurate) and a second one that I have tested to be fairly accurate (within 1C). Channelling may be a concern, but is part of the reason I did a batch sparge this time as I was of the understanding that channelling was not so much a problem with batch sparging. I am concerned that if the outlet was sucking from 1.5inches above the base then the resultant channelling effect would reduce the amount of sugars being washed out of the grist.
No brew software, I'm still in the home brew 20th century doing calcs the old school way with a calculator. Cheers for the tip re silicon o-rings.

I'm assuming (and hoping) you're talking about brewhouse efficiency and not mash efficiency.

Do you run into or approach stuck sparges as well?

I don't calculate brewhouse efficiency, so yes mash efficiency :unsure:. Which is why I am concerned. I would be more than happy getting 70% efficiency consistently, but at the moment there is no consistency at all. No stuck sparge on this occasion, but that has been a reoccuring theme since starting to use this mash tun. After the second brew with slow to stuck sparge, I spoke to Beer Belly and found that I hadn't been tightening the false bottom down with enough pressure allowing the grist to get underneath to edges. Major teething problems with a new piece of kit and I'm not to proud to admit it's user error. Solved the stuck sparge problem as none this time, but now this. Any advice?

Not sure why your doing the 52 deg step

Partially tradition, mostly to assist absorbtion prior to s[SIZE=10pt]accharification with the aim to increase mash efficiency. The latest batch sparge did not include such a step, as I got back to basics and did a 66C rest only[/SIZE].

 

[Jack of all biers]

After posting the last I went and tested my thermometer again (not the mash tun one) and found it is 4-6C out from an electronic one I have in the house. Arggh. I initially tested it when I bought it 2 months ago and it was close enough to be spot on. Frustrating to the extreme as it was bought at a HB store. I will be taking it back.

 

[MHB]

I wish I had $1 for every time I have suggested buying one thermometer you can trust, it will only cost you $10-15 and will save you a lot of aggravation.
Personally I think trusting any dial thermometer is very brave and the trouble with electronic thermometers is they can drift as the battery flattens, or just decide to start telling lies without warning or giving any sign that they are wandering off.

When I was a retailer I always checked the thermometers I sold against a NATA certified thermometer, most HBS wont go that far, but at least look at a few thermometers and reject any that don't agree with the average.
Even if your benchmark thermometer was 0.5-10C out it wont really matter, as long as its consistent, you will always adjust a recipe to suit your personal taste to make the beer dryer or sweeter as you like (better to have an accurate thermometer).

Mark

 

[antiphile]

Hi Jack (no pun intended)

I have another thought (yes, my second for the year) that is a likely candidate from my personal experience, but I've no idea how it might translate to a Beer Belly mash tun, nor how it might be solved.

In brief, I use a 50 litre rectangular esky with a home-made copper manifold that was fastidiously designed on John Palmer's advice (in an appendix of his How to Brew book). After having horribly poor efficiency problems and several stuck sparges, the saw cuts were almost doubled out of frustration and then, voila! All the problems magically disappeared and I still can't believe the solution could have been so easy. Even single infusion mashes plus mash out provide better than 85% mash efficiency on average according to Beersmith (with fly sparging).

I know this doesn't directly answer your BeerBelly ptoblems, but is it possible they can provide a "manifold-equivalent" that has a larger drainage surface area?

Cheers mate.

 

[Jack of all biers]

I wish I had $1 for every time I have suggested buying one thermometer you can trust, it will only cost you $10-15 and will save you a lot of aggravation.
Personally I think trusting any dial thermometer is very brave and the trouble with electronic thermometers is they can drift as the battery flattens, or just decide to start telling lies without warning or giving any sign that they are wandering off.

Yeah.... This thermometer was $14.95 and bought from BB so I thought it would be reasonably good. I did initially test it against other thermometers and it was within 1C so I was ok with it. I only bought it on 26 May 2015 so in less than two months it has moved from 1C out to 6C. I'm certain it is out by this much as there is no way it is currently 20C in my freezing house at the moment when my electronic thermometer tells me 14C. I bought this dial thermometer after a previous red spirit (glass) thermometer broke on a brew day (fortunately not in the mash at the time), thinking I probably needed something sturdier. I had planned to trade this defective thing in for a digital thermometer, but after your above comments I am procrastinating.

Do you or others have any suggestions? Type of thermometer/brands? Should I go back to the red spirit type (which lasted me years by the way) or is it a case of fastidiously checking one against the other on a regular basis?

 

[manticle]

Alcohol thermometers are good. I usually have 2 or 3.
Spares in case of breakage but also reliability.
Test them in boiling water, cold water overnight in the fridge and in the freezer. Then compare at mash temps.
Letdown of dial therms in my experience is that they measure heat in only one spot as well as drawing heat from that spot.

 

[MHB]

I would say that to be that far out - if you looked closely at the thermometer you will find that there is a very crack in the glass above the liquid.
The non liquid filled part should be a vacuum, if the vacuum is lost the thermometer is kaput.
the other thing to bare in mind is that there are 2 different types of thermometer, total and partial immersion. Thermometer are only accurate if used correctly.
Mark

 

[Jack of all biers]

Thanks guys. I was down on the parents farm today and received a 'Fowlers Vacola Preserving Thermometer' that is no longer used by Ma. It is a glass red spirit thermometer incased in a curved SS cover. Best of both worlds in that it is sturdy and accurate (tested against 3 other thermos). I also found that the defective dial thermometer has an adjustment nut under the dial so it has now been corrected (although it will hard to trust the thing now) and will be tested as suggested above by Manticle.

Re the Mash tun. I will give it a dry run to test the water tightness of the olives at mash out water temps (without grain for the test), using food colouring drops in different areas to see how the hydro dynamics (and leaks) are functioning. I'm still convinced it is user error.

 

[marksy]

I had two thermometers that we 4c apart and I would use them both on brew day, always mixing them up my readings were all over the place. Google, thermometer calibration chart and do that to all of them.

I was surprised they were both out, and against the chart too.