How many use bottles?

[An Ankoù]

English-style ales don't do too well: they reach a point where they're good and then they start to go downhill a bit. Many of the yeasts that are good in casks are not all suited to bottling as they continue to nibble away at the higher sugars and you end up with Vesuvius!

Ah ha, finally someone with the same experience as myself. This is the reason I gave up using WY1968, even though I love the character it brought to my UK Ales.

There's some controversy as to whether Wyeast1968 is actually the yeast that Fuller's use in their own beers even though they endorse it. I agree that it's got a lovely flavour in strong bitters and you've reminded me of an experiment I wanted to try. I'm going to brew a Fuller's ESB clone and just before bottling it, I'm going to prime and repitch the beer with Safale F2, which is alleged to be a bottling yeast that doesn't metabolise maltotriose and higher sugars. Thanks for reminding me. ESB used to be my favourite in the Blue Boar, Poole, Dorset. I'll let you know how I get on, in a 6-8 weeks or so.

 

[Narapoia]

There's some controversy as to whether Wyeast1968 is actually the yeast that Fuller's use in their own beers even though they endorse it. I agree that it's got a lovely flavour in strong bitters and you've reminded me of an experiment I wanted to try. I'm going to brew a Fuller's ESB clone and just before bottling it, I'm going to prime and repitch the beer with Safale F2, which is alleged to be a bottling yeast that doesn't metabolise maltotriose and higher sugars. Thanks for reminding me. ESB used to be my favourite in the Blue Boar, Poole, Dorset. I'll let you know how I get on, in a 6-8 weeks or so.

Would you need to filter the beer prior to priming and repitch the F2 to remove the 1968?

Just curious. Have a mate that loves his English ales and bitters so would like to do a batch for him but minus the bomb potential from slow chomping of the higher sugars.

 

[Grmblz]

@An Ankoù I don't think it's possible to replicate cask ESB in a bottle or keg for that matter, buy a bottle of ESB, it's not the same as cask, neither is keg ESB, and if Fullers can't do it I doubt anyone can. The life expectancy of a cask of ale, once tapped is about a week, largely due to oxidation and condition loss so the yeast munching away doesn't really come into play, cask breathers (aspirators) have greatly extended the life of a cask but you would still expect the cask to be emptied within a couple of weeks. it would be really interesting to see how long it would take for the flavour profile to change to a noticeable extent due to the yeast activity. Good luck with the F2, I suspect the residual 1968 will continue to create problems long term but time will tell.

 

[An Ankoù]

@An Ankoù I don't think it's possible to replicate cask ESB in a bottle or keg for that matter, buy a bottle of ESB, it's not the same as cask, neither is keg ESB, and if Fullers can't do it I doubt anyone can. The life expectancy of a cask of ale, once tapped is about a week, largely due to oxidation and condition loss so the yeast munching away doesn't really come into play, cask breathers (aspirators) have greatly extended the life of a cask but you would still expect the cask to be emptied within a couple of weeks. it would be really interesting to see how long it would take for the flavour profile to change to a noticeable extent due to the yeast activity. Good luck with the F2, I suspect the residual 1968 will continue to create problems long term but time will tell.

I agree with you entirely, @Grmblz , and that goes for all bottled versions of cask ales. Most of the bottled stuff is pasteurised and the so called "real ale in a bottle" still tastes different to the cask version.
I've got a theory that many of the yeasts that are favoured for cask beer have developed over the years to try to mitigate the problems you describe: oxidation and loss of condition. If the yeast can keep chugging away in the background then that might give an extra day or two's drinkability to a cask of ale.
Interestingly, back in the early days of home brewing, when decent yeasts were not so readily available, we used to culture yeast from bottles of some commercial brands- Guinness, White Shield and Spifire being some of the favourites. I don't think any of those brands are bottle-conditioned today. My aim with the F2 is to rack, chill and lager the beer to get rid of as much of the main yeast as possible and use the primings and bottling yeast to condition the beer. I'm hoping to get a longer shelf life this way, but I agree that I won't get rid of the original yeast entirely.
As for bottled ESB and cask ESB, I've drunk enough of both to know they're not the same. That's not to say that the bottled version isn't a decent beer in its own right, though.

 

[An Ankoù]

Would you need to filter the beer prior to priming and repitch the F2 to remove the 1968?

Just curious. Have a mate that loves his English ales and bitters so would like to do a batch for him but minus the bomb potential from slow chomping of the higher sugars.

I'll let you know how it turns out. No I won't be filtering, but see my reply to @Grmblz. In truth, I've never seen F2 recommended in any of the main UK or US recipe sources, but a lot of French and Belgian recipes use it and, let's face it, Fermentis must be making it for something! So I reckon we might be missing a trick here.
Another way is to use a plastic PB or a keg without top pressure. One of the contributors on the UK forum developed what he called the Noddy system. He'd use a plastic PB as a cask, rack the nearly finished beer into the cask and then fit a large balloon to the inlet/escape valve to capture the CO2. This allowed him to draw off his beer and replace the ullage with CO2 at atmospheric pressure, just like a cask breather. He goes under the name of CD these days if you want to check him out. Remember, though that cask ale is "live" ale and once fermentation is completely over, it'll inevitable start to get flat; the cask breather only stops it from going stale.

 

[An Ankoù]

Further to earlier replies, I should add that my experiment using bottling yeast is an experiment and not a tried and tested solution. I think the Belgians use it because, by the time the original yeast has fermented their high-strength worts, the yeast is pretty much knackered and they add the bottling yeast to ensure even conditioning. Nevertheless, getting rid of the original yeast by lagering will age the beer and get rid of most of the yeast and the bottling yeast and primings will ensure quick carbonation. Not exactly traditional "real ale" technique, although it might well be for "real ale in a bottle".
What we do know about Wyeast 1968 is that it doesn't posses any of the STA genes that make it a diastaticus variant and so while it appears to nibble away at the higher sugars, it can't produce the enzymes necessary for metabolising dextrins. I reckon it's just a very slow finisher, which, since it's described as "extremely flocculent" is likely the case. Rousing it back into the beer towards the end of fermentation might produce wonders, too.
Lot's of ideas and lots to experiment with. Let's not write off 1968 just yet.

 

[Grmblz]

This is starting to get very interesting, as an ex Fullers manager I can attest to some customers noticing the difference between a freshly tapped barrel, a middle of life, and end of life, and of course some preferred fresh whilst others preferred old, plenty didn't notice (or didn't comment) we're talking from 1 to 5 days the difference, so what exactly does FST ESB taste like? Well, depends on the pub, some had higher standards than others, so the experience differed, Fullers was not alone, Youngs was the same, and I would contest any cask conditioned ale outlet would have had the same issues. We're talking early CAMRA days (no aspirators) so it may be a bit different now. Worth mentioning is the use of "sparklers" and the ability of the bar "person" pc gone bloody mad, to regulate the pull pressure so as to ensure an acceptable "head" As the barrel aged (flattened) the sparkler would be wound up and the pressure on the handle increased, I had barmaids that could annihilate the average guy in an arm wrestle. I happen to prefer FST LP and have an aspirator and engine specifically for it, I typically do 20L batches but for my LP I do a half batch, and very often chuck the last 2,3 or 4L's, I'm going to follow this thread with great interest.

 

[TheMakAttack]

I was bottling for the first couple years and eventually I just found brewing to be cumbersome because the bottle tree took up so much space and prepping and filling was messy and my bottling wand would often not seal well and I'm crouched on the floor for too long trying to fill everything up, and oxygen exposure to all my dry hops, and fear of infection while racking.... I was using 750ml bottles to try and speed the process up but then I would want a drink all 750ml in one go. So eventually I just decided it was time to upgrade.

I started building my whole system upgrade back when my daughter was born 9 months ago and I just conditioned my first keg of Niepa last weekend. I didn't just upgrade the kegs though, I went full pressure fermentation, magnetic drive transfer pumps, Whirlpool, HLT with HERMS.
Needless to say My OCD in the build would not let me start my first brew till it all got pieced together, and I suspect I spent around $2,000 all up . But my god the control is incredible. The ability to force carb to have a real quality beverage ready to drink in a reasonable amount of time. To be able to transfer from fermenter under pressure into a purged keg is incredible. Also to not have bottles in my fridge taking up space. Not to mention when I was finished drinking I would often fill my bottles with tap water and shake them up to make sure that no buildup would cake on the inside of the bottle. So I'd often have 3-4 bottles floating around in the fridge half-full of water while I was waiting to spray them out and put them on the bottle tree. Yes I think bottles conditions for long periods of time was fantastic for a quality finished product, but I don't really let my beer last very long so that wasn't a huge benefit to me, and the cleanliness and maximised space in my brew kitchen, and not having to hear that screaming bottle spray adaptor on my tap anymore LOL. I don't miss them one bit. I can put a keg on the bucket blaster with some PBW and she's crystal clear in about 6mins.

The only reason I'd go back to bottles now would be to store a few for later to allow them to condition a little longer and to bring over to a friend's....

Keg for life now baby

 

[cpsmusic]

Ah that's interesting - I have read that PET bottles are oxygen permeable so you will get oxidation over time that you won't see with glass bottles. It's a relatively distinctive off flavor so maybe that's it if you were giving them 6 months?

All that said - I definitely am curious to try kegging some of mine to see if that makes a difference as others have definitely mentioned a quality increase as well. I may have to put up with the walk!

I have a 10L Brau and use bottles. For a while I used PET bottles but found that some are definitely oxygen permeable and that this produces off flavours as the beer ages. I've switched to swingtops and no longer have the problem. I've attached an article that I found online that discusses the problem a bit more.

Cheers!

 

[Feldon]

Similar questions about PET bottles came up in a thread here on AHB about six years ago:

PET Bottles - How long is too long in the bottle?

My reply back then (post #3) was about PET bottles losing carbonation over time, and I quoted PB2, an employee of Coopers and a moderator on the old Coopers forum :

(the link to PB2's original posting on the old Coopers forum is now dead)

As regards the ingress of oxygen (O2) into PET bottles, there is an internal nylon barrier liner in Coopers PET bottles (don't know about other makers, or used Coke bottles etc). And if O2 does get in the yeast should consume it pretty quickly, in the short/medium term anyway while there is active yeast in suspension.

If you are getting "off flavors" from PET bottled beer my first suspicions would be that it might have something to do with your brewing process. Or if it is bottle-related they are unsanitary bottles despite how well you think you have cleaned them. And they probably are unsanitary if you have ever scrubbed them out with a bottle brush (even a soft one).

I've been using some Coopers PET bottles for more than six years without issue (to me anyway), but then I rarely keep my beers for longer than about four months. It's not Grange Hermitage.

 

[Bark0s]

The general rule with bottle conditioning is the longer the better (to a certain point of course). I used to have enough bottles to last 6 months of conditioning before I drank them. Not sure if it's true about kit beer giving the homebrew taste as I still use kits now I'm on kegs I don't have the flavour any more. Move beears are all crisp, clean and free from any off smells or flavours. To me the flavour comes from carbing in the bottles. It could potentially be the increased amount of oxygen that comes with bottling but I used to use PET bottles and squeeze the beer right up to the top so there was next to no air in the bottle. I do think doing that improved my beer but still a long way short of what it's like now with kegs. I still think it's bottle carbing that makes the flavour.

I have my kegerator in the garage that is attached to my house, so I only have to walk down the hall way etc to pour a beer. I can definitely understand that it could be annoying for people who would have to have their kegerator in a shed etc away form the house.

I believe the home brew twang comes about from varied temperature fermentations. Rock steady temps make better beer.
Bottle ‘conditioning’ secondary ferments don’t tend to happen inside a fridge…so there’s another place for interesting flavours to appear in rookie beer.

 

[fifis101]

I believe the home brew twang comes about from varied temperature fermentations. Rock steady temps make better beer.
Bottle ‘conditioning’ secondary ferments don’t tend to happen inside a fridge…so there’s another place for interesting flavours to appear in rookie beer.

Nope, I doubt that very much. I always brewed my beer in a controlled environment with temperature control. Maybe a little less control while bottle carbing but still in a warmed cupboard for a week to carbonate, then in a cool cupboard for storage.
I would like to taste a beer from someone who bottle carbs who claims not to have the homebrew "twang".

 

[Narapoia]

Nope, I doubt that very much. I always brewed my beer in a controlled environment with temperature control. Maybe a little less control while bottle carbing but still in a warmed cupboard for a week to carbonate, then in a cool cupboard for storage.
I would like to taste a beer from someone who bottle carbs who claims not to have the homebrew "twang".

I've made about 30 batches now - the only consistent off-flavour I noticed was when I was putting the whole kettle into the fermenter - rather than whirlpooling and leaving the hot break behind. Since then I would say the bottle conditioned beer I've been making lacks any distinct common off flavour across styles (so long as poured off the yeast layer in the bottom of the bottle). It's a pity you are in Tassie as would love to take you up on that taste test - as if I am missing something I would definitely like to know. The other thing I have noticed is leaving them to condition at room temp (or circa 21 degrees) for 4-6 weeks instead of 2, then cold conditioning gets the beer out of the 'green' phase more quickly. Learning patience with new batches however was a slow journey.

Set up is AG, Brew in a basket, with temp control for ferment and bottle conditioning (mostly).

 

[fifis101]

I've made about 30 batches now - the only consistent off-flavour I noticed was when I was putting the whole kettle into the fermenter - rather than whirlpooling and leaving the hot break behind. Since then I would say the bottle conditioned beer I've been making lacks any distinct common off flavour across styles (so long as poured off the yeast layer in the bottom of the bottle). It's a pity you are in Tassie as would love to take you up on that taste test - as if I am missing something I would definitely like to know. The other thing I have noticed is leaving them to condition at room temp (or circa 21 degrees) for 4-6 weeks instead of 2, then cold conditioning gets the beer out of the 'green' phase more quickly. Learning patience with new batches however was a slow journey.

Set up is AG, Brew in a basket, with temp control for ferment and bottle conditioning (mostly).

I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you or others don't notice anything then you're doing a good job. It's probably just me but either way I don't have to deal with it any more now I'm using kegs

 

[yankinoz]

Nope, I doubt that very much. I always brewed my beer in a controlled environment with temperature control. Maybe a little less control while bottle carbing but still in a warmed cupboard for a week to carbonate, then in a cool cupboard for storage.
I would like to taste a beer from someone who bottle carbs who claims not to have the homebrew "twang".

If bottle conditioning is the source of twang, then twang is a much sought after trait:

 

[Markbeer]

Twang to me is from extract, poor yeast processes or infection.

I have been a little more lax with temperature lately. The beer is still great.

Nope, I doubt that very much. I always brewed my beer in a controlled environment with temperature control. Maybe a little less control while bottle carbing but still in a warmed cupboard for a week to carbonate, then in a cool cupboard for storage.
I would like to taste a beer from someone who bottle carbs who claims not to have the homebrew "twang".