How do you clean fermenters?

[Ducatiboy stu]

OK, Big Boy, we might have to agree to disagree. There is absolutely no activation needed. Once it dissolves it will do the exact same thing whether that is at 20C or at 99C. The only difference is there will be a lot more oxygen released from the peroxide component and lost to the atmosphere above the liquid (and less dissolved into the water) at a higher temperature to oxidise the microbial cell walls, than at a lower temperature.

But I still love you and will give you a wet sloppy kiss when I meet you next (but no tongues, 'cos I'm a Catholic )

But I read it on the Internet so it must be true


That and the bit about using hot water with sodium-perc

 

[dicko]

Sodium percarbonate, apart from its first reaction when added to hot water is really only SOAP.
Acids and alkalis are what you need for sanitation.
High temperature and time is what you need for sterilising...

 

[quadbox]

Acids and alkalis are what you need for sanitation.

It's nowhere near that simple. Some fairly strong acids and alkalis are nowhere near as good at killing off bacteria as iodine is as iodophor. Or as phosphoric acid is, which is a very weak acid. It's not the ph of the sanitisers that makes them great sanitisers, it's other qualities in their interaction with the organism.

 

[dicko]

The OP is blaming a dirty fermenter for an off taste and that is really a broad generalisation, similar to my above statement.
We can all comment as to how he should clean, sanitise and prepare his fermenter for the next ferment.
Personally if it was me and I was positive it was my fermenter I would go down to my local friendly home brew shop and by a new fermenter.
If it is the fermenter and the OP has done everything that has been advised/suggested in ths thread and he has used all the available sanitisers and methods then there is no other alternative.
What does a plastic fermenter cost?
I think the last one I bought from a brew shop in Adelaide was 22 bucks and that was around 3 years ago.

 

[antiphile]

Agreed, Big Ted (BTW, is there any chance you can set me up with Jemima for a date?)

We are not talking sterilisation here. What we aim for is sanitisation (which is a combination of cleaning and disinfection). And there are many ways to achieve disinfection to deactivate the micro-organisms. One is strong acids (eg. StarSan). One is a very strong alkali. And one is oxidation.

While Sodium Perc is an alkali, it is not strong enough to deactivate most organisms. It works predominantly by an oxidising action to damage the cell wall.

And a longer contact time is way more effective than a short contact time.

Cheers

Edited: and an included surfactant helps. The one in Starsan is very effective but Sodum Perc has no dedicated one, though is does feel "soapy" to the touch.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Ah...the long forgotten idophor... Good stuff but turned evrything brown

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

but Sodum Perc has no dedicated one, though is does feel "soapy" to the touch.

That is the Sodium-Carbonate your feeling. It is the surfactant

 

[hooper80]

The OP is blaming a dirty fermenter for an off taste and that is really a broad generalisation, similar to my above statement.
We can all comment as to how he should clean, sanitise and prepare his fermenter for the next ferment.
Personally if it was me and I was positive it was my fermenter I would go down to my local friendly home brew shop and by a new fermenter.
If it is the fermenter and the OP has done everything that has been advised/suggested in ths thread and he has used all the available sanitisers and methods then there is no other alternative.
What does a plastic fermenter cost?
I think the last one I bought from a brew shop in Adelaide was 22 bucks and that was around 3 years ago.

Yeah I am the op and that's what I'm gunna do. I've had em for over a year now, so I think it easy to just get a few more. Another thing I've thought of is I've had trouble getting my wort down under 26-27 degrees before I pitch my yeast. For my next brew I've set up my old mash tun as a ice bank before it hits my Emersion chiller. You think this temp could be causing the phenols?

 

[antiphile]

IMHO, pitching at that temp isn't necessarily a problem, provided you can get the temp down to, say, sub-22 pretty quickly. Fermenting above that target is likely to give phenols and esters (with most yeasts).

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I've had trouble getting my wort down under 26-27 degrees before I pitch my yeast.
You think this temp could be causing the phenols?

Yes

But it wont make it taste like its infected

 

[hooper80]

IMHO, pitching at that temp isn't necessarily a problem, provided you can get the temp down to, say, sub-22 pretty quickly. Fermenting above that target is likely to give phenols and esters (with most yeasts).

Cheers, it Gos straight into a temp controlled fridge, 10 degress for my largers, 18 for ales.

 

[antiphile]

G'day Hoop

Please beleve me when I say I'm really not trying to take the piss. Is it possible it's not a problem with phenols/esters etc? I know in the past I've diagnosed a problem (and subsequently confirmed it to myself), only to get another opinion and find I was quite wrong.

Are you able to get someone you trust to give an opinion? Failing that, a while ago, MHB posted info about this Beer Fault Guide that might give you some other causes.

All the best.

 

[dicko]

Yes

But it wont make it taste like its infected

Many types of yeast can get phenols at higher temperatures and some yeast have that characteristic as normal.
Instructions by the yeast manufacturers should be followed for best results.

 

[Fylp]

Ah...the long forgotten idophor... Good stuff but turned evrything brown

I've never had an infection (fingers crossing - knocking on wood) and I only use idophor and elbow grease. When I started many years ago the ancient fella at the ESB factory gave me the direction and followed ever since. I don't mind the brown and use it in two different strengths, nuclear and no rinse.

 

[Fylp]

Many types of yeast can get phenols at higher temperatures and some yeast have that characteristic as normal.
Instructions by the yeast manufacturers should be followed for best results.

Without temp control at this time of year you could end up with all sorts of flavours.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Brewers should regularly change their sanitation regime and chemicals to keep the bugs at bay

 

[Rod]

Most as above. After giving it a good jet hose out, I use a mild detergent with a soft sponge to mechanically remove all gunk. Then rinse and give it a good hot perc soak, then soak tap (occasionally breaking it apart).

The perc soak isn't full, maybe a third. As I'm usually cleaning other stuff I'll give a good shake and invert every time I go past, duct tap on the air lock hole.

Leave at least an hour or overnight, empty, rinse and throw in a cup or so of star san and give it a good shake.

I make sure I run the rinse water and some star san through the tap at the end too, and wrap the tap in some paper towel to keep garage dust out.

If/when bleach is required I give it a full volume soak after in hot perc to remove the bleach odours.

I always dismantle tap

 

[Nick the Knife]

.

bleach & vinegar.jpg

http://www.buzzfeed.com/peggy/16-common-product-combinations-you-should-never-mix#.jyr0Orr5zZ

With all due respect did you actually read my post or simply see bleach + vinegar being mentioned and knee jerk react that mixing these together ALONE was a bad idea?

I clearly stated that you mix bleach with water and THEN add an equal amount of vinegar - this simple process will NOT create Chlorine gas. Suffice to say the correct amounts of bleach as recommended on it's package should be used e.g 1:50 bleach to water.

So much so is what you stated untrue that IF used correctly (bleach+water)+vinegar can actually be used as a highly effective NO RINSE sanitiser (actually endorsed & recommended by Charlie Talley, the founder/owner of 5 Star Chemicals (makers of Starsan!).

So whilst I understand your reaction that 'bleach + vinegar = bad' it's simply NOT what I said and therefore it's incorrect. As when used correctly it's a very highly effective product thats according to Charlie Talley as good as anything commercial.

 

[tugger]

When I had a similar problem I solved it by going to a ss fermenter and doing a 20 min boil in the fermenter with water every few brews.
Standard pbw and starsan in between.
Then the transfer from the kettle is covered with foil as much as possible.

 

[TheWiggman]

My process -

• Post-bottling/kegging, rinse with hot water to remove yeast and trub
• Tip in half a cap of unscented Aldi-brand Di-San plus a jug (1.7l) of boiling water
• Lid on immediately, shake and swirl the hell out of it and make sure all surfaces are contacted. Roll liquid over krausen ring.
• Wait for 10 mins, repeat.
• Wipe internals with a chux cloth
• Drain and rinse with hot water, and continue to rinse and wipe with a cloth until all residue is gone
• Tip in jug of boiled water and shake again.
• Leave until cool, tip water
• Pour ~150ml of Star San in, shake, then tip
• Allow to air dry then store

Prior to fermenting, I'll give it another quick sanitiser hit then rinse off with boiled water. Whenever I use a cloth I always use a fresh one. Prior to touching things post-brew day I wash my hands with anti bacterial and spray with sanitiser.

Now that's what I do, as per the thread title, and since doing this have had 2 infections - one in the fermenter with hydrated yeast and another in a keg. I've had 2 fermenting infections now as you describe (phenol/vinyl taste but no signs visually of an infection) using rehydrated yeast but never with liquid yeast. The infection that occurred in the keg was fine in bottles of the same batch, and I later found some crap in the dip tube which I'm potentially attributing to the infection. In the other infection I discovered I hadn't cleaned the tap, possibly the cause.

Prior to this method the one infection was with a far more wasteful regime of a multi-day soak with 4 x the Di-San. This was at a different house. Nothing else has been common (fermenter, yeast, transfer tube, keg) and the brews before and after were fine with the same gear. So even though all the good intentions and skill may be there, the environment can still potentially lead to an infection as ultimately there will always be some airborne nasties in the head space of your fermenter.