hops mix for hop burst session IPA feedback plz

[droid]

Hi all

Brewing with what's left on hand this weekend and no chilling all of it but was going to whirlpool and then transfer and dry hop later

I'm enjoying the lighter malt and intense aroma and flavour of styles like Stone go to IPA, not really concerned about the malt bill but more about real world extraction of IBU's and how the hops will work together

So any thoughts on my hop mix would be gratefully received, especially if you have done it yourself as opposed to wondering what it would be like...but hey comment away anyhoo. Keep in mind this is a 66ltr batch so g/l and IBU's based on that volume

Title: Charger v2

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: American Pale/Session IPA
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 66 liters (ending kettle volume)
Boil Size: 81 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.037
Efficiency: 75% (ending kettle)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.045
Final Gravity: 1.008
ABV (standard): 4.9%
IBU (tinseth): 36.03
SRM (morey): 3.86

FERMENTABLES:
8.8 kg - German - Pilsner (69.9%)
3.52 kg - German - Wheat Malt (28%)
0.27 kg - German - CaraMunich I (2.1%)

HOPS:
80 g - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at 99 °C, IBU: 10.43
80 g - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.25, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at 99 °C, IBU: 17.27
50 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at 99 °C, IBU: 8.33

60 g - Vic Secret, Type: Pellet, AA: 14, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
60 g - mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 11.6, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
30 g - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
50 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.8, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 64 C, Time: 180 min, Amount: 34.3 L
Starting Mash Thickness: 3 L/kg

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05
Fermentation Temp: 20 C

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Light colored and hoppy
Ca2: 75
Mg2: 5
Na: 10
Cl: 50
SO4: 150
HCO3: 0
Water Notes:

NOTES:
no fermenter space left so making 3 cubes of session IPA with no 60 minute addition - adding all hops at whirlpool or through hop-back into cubes

 

[yankinoz]

Do you mean whirlpool at 0 minutes from end of boil? If you whirlpool for 0 minutes, you don't whirlpool at all.

I'm not just being a word-choice Nazi. Without knowing how long you are whirlpooling, and then how soon you chill, it's hard to gauge the IBU calculations.

With the added information, I'd be interested in knowing how the IBUs come out. The bittering contribution from whirlpools and hop stand is a far-from-settled question.

That hop bill should give you a monster fruit basket, some floral, spice that would be hard to detect through the noise, and very little pine.

 

[Droopy Brew]

With that many different types of hops and all after the boil, I reckon it will turn out a bit confused.

But I may be wrong- give it a go.

 

[droid]

I have never done all bittering at the end of boil before so there's definately concern over extraction and ibu
I was going to shut off the heat and throw the hops in and whirlpool then let sit for 20 min before transferring to cubes ... Another thing I hVe rarely done

Maybe that hop burst will not need such a big dry hop as a follow up

Hmmm

 

[Danscraftbeer]

With that many different types of hops and all after the boil, I reckon it will turn out a bit confused.

But I may be wrong- give it a go.

I kind of agree with that a little. When I've tried all flame out or cube hopped only beers as well as trying a combination of hop caracters I didn't like them much. Its like you need some more isoremization backbone or it seems like its missing something. Although I did age/lager a couple of bottles in the fridge for months and it seemed the months lagering did define flavours better but as fresh/green beer it wasn't real good.

 

[droid]

Which of the above hops would work as a bittering at 60 or 30?min

 

[technobabble66]

I'd FWH some of the citra, mosaic &/or Amarillo.
They're smooth bitterers (well, I know definitely the first 2 are), and FWH should also produce a smooth bittering plus a small flavour contribution. A big plus is that it's essentially a bittering addition of "infinite" time so it doesn't matter so much if you boil for longer or shorter, or whirlpool for longer or shorter duration.
I've found it to be a great combo to do FWH + cube additions - best of convenience plus getting some solid bittering & flavour to back up the cube hops. (Or WP in your case).

Otherwise the hops selection and choice of timing & quantities looks perfect.
I'd be tempted with some dank/resin element with Columbus or centennial, but with the amounts you have of the others you might get it from them already.

Nelson I'm not sure about - I find used at the right time it's great, but at the wrong time, it's too winey and has been terrible. Unfortunately the worst case I've had I did both a large late boil addition plus dry hopping. So I'm not sure if it's best used solely in late boil or dry hopping, or both but at low quantities.
I'm guessing what you've proposed with Nelson should be great, but I'd be keen to hear more from others experienced with this (apologies for slight OT).

 

[Droopy Brew]

Agree that those 3 are your best pick for bittering. Also agree on the FWH- it will stabilise the aromas. I usually try to FWH with a mid range alpha hop so Amarillo is standing out here.

Also agree you need some dankness in there as all of those hops are cirtusy/fruity. Will be better balanced and less one dimensional with a good wack of Simcoe, Chinook or Centennial in there.

Edit: While Im agreeing with everything Techno posted- I have also had a similar experience with Nelson early on. Cant remember what additions but being an extract brewer at the time it wold have been late boil Nelson and it was like drinking Riesling so I have never touched them since. I have however, had many fine craft beers that use Nelson (esp. NZ beers). Definitely a hop that needs to be used correctly to get the best from it.

 

[Dan Pratt]

Stone go to uses magnum for 8ibu at the start of the boil.

 

[droid]

thanks guys - I have no Magnum but have used it almost exclusively as my bittering hop so FWH sounds like the go

Nelson S is awesome when used as a 25% dry-hop with mosaic or simcoe @ 75% - so 1g/l NS and 3g/l Mosaic or Simcoe for example

I might pull the Vic Secret, probably don't need citra with the dry-hop or take out Nels S and use Citra...I do have Chinnook of about 80g I think, this is starting to take shape nicely :beer:

 

[droid]

So whaddyas reckon?


Amarillo @ FHW for 10ibu
Galaxy, Chinook and a bit of Citra at 0 for 25-30ibu

Citra or NS and Mosaic Dry-hopped

Could swap out Galaxy for more Amarillo, could use some Vic-secret still?

 

[technobabble66]

Yep looks great.
I'd keep galaxy as WP, plus the other 2. (I'm also a huge chinook fan). Using galaxy as a WP addition should avoid any issues some people have with it, and it'll probably give a massive (passion)fruity hit plus it can give a dank element in higher quantities (sometimes). So I'd stick with that.
I'd definitely stick with Citra + Mosaic for the dry hop; and if you think I little Nelson works with lots of the others, I don't see why you wouldn't chuck a little Nelson in as well.

If it was me, I'd also use a moderate amount of chinook in the dry hop, to try to push a little pine & spice element.
But that's just me, and then you'd probably choose between the Nelson (winey sort-of-piney) or the chinook (more straight pine/pineapple)

So basically yes. But moar!!

 

[fletcher]

agree with techno. add some chinook for the dry hop. that piney-ness will pair beautifully with all that fruit.

apart from that though, i'm happy to come take one of those cubes off your hands mate

 

[droid]

well gents I think that's just about a wrap

love youse all

 

[droid]

need to double check the AA's
HOPS:
FWH
80 g - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: First Wort, IBU: 18.07
20 g - citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.2, Use: First Wort, IBU: 7.46
Flame out - WP let stand for 20mins
20 g - Chinook, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Whirlpool at 0 min at 99 °C, IBU: 3.94
20 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Whirlpool at 0 min at 99 °C, IBU: 3.33
40 g - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.25, Use: Whirlpool at 0 min at 99 °C, IBU: 8.64
Dry Hopping 3g/l
60 g - Chinook, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
60 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.8, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
70 g - mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 11.6, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

starting to think a bit of carapils in the mash might be the go, or some carawheat
f it - just ordered a 60ltr fermenter so the above will still work I'll just chill after a good 20minutes of utilisation which is normal practice for me, not sure about the ratio of Citra for Dry Hopping but that;s the hops all done and dusted except for NS and Vic Secret - whoops...and 40gms Galaxy on hand

thinking about pulling the citra back and using more galaxy

 

[Midnight Brew]

Not a huge hop head myself but I have noticed before that Vic Secret is an excellent dry hopper. Especially paired with something like chinook. I used it on its own as a dry hop in a blonde ale at 2g/l. The cube hops were chinook, ahtanum and citra. Came out really fruity and fragrant and will use it again next time I brew an APA.

I realise this won't help but something to keep in mind for when you use the Vic Secret.

 

[technobabble66]

Looks great again!
Fwiw, I'd normally target ~20%, maybe up to 30%, bittering from FWH for an APA/IPA.
Not necessarily based on extensive research etc, it just seems a good balance between getting some decent benefits from the FWH but also still packing as large an amount of hops as possible into the late/cube additions. It's worked very well for me so far, but maybe other ratios would as well.
Not sure what your IBU contribution split is, but thought I'd mention it.

 

[droid]

Stu, normally I do 50:50, so 50% total IBU at 60mins and 50% total IBU from 20mins through to WP but I was looking for a hop burst which should be mostly late additions for all IBU

I don't have enough of anything to keep the hop burst to one or two hops and achieve that but yes, good point and the recipe has moved away from the hop burst, me no likey this

@ Cam, Beavertown Neck-Oil uses [SIZE=12pt]Mosaic, Amarillo, Galaxy, Vic Secret as Dry Hopping so I'm hearing you, re - Vic Secret as a dry hop. It might pay to carefully transfer the (60ltrs) beer when it has a couple of points to go into 3 kegs, do three different dry-hop additions, that way I could do my Nelson Sauvin/Mosaic Dry-hop and a Chinook/Vic Secret and maybe an Amarillo/Citra or something keeping Galaxy in the kettle. If dry-hopped at 3g/l as opposed to 4g/l that would leave for the bittering and hop burst;[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]80gms Galaxy[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]30gms of Mosaic[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]60gms of chinook[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]50gms Vic-Secret[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]50gms Amarillo[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]70gms Citra[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]none of which I'm particularly keen to see used as FWH but me gots nothing else. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]so maybe I'll throw it in with 5 to go, then WP and let stand for 20 starting at 99C (probably not getting under 85C). I reckon if I punch the numbers into the software as a 15min boil and run with those amounts to get 80% total IBU it will be close.[/SIZE]

 

[technobabble66]

Yep. Totally agree with your reasoning/explanation above. I, too, was concerned you were front loading your IBUs too heavily and needed to back it off to max your late stuff

I'd use a citra & chinook combo for FWH, and aim for ~(15-)20% of your total IBUs. Dump the rest late. Simples

If you're chilling, I'd *maybe* be tempted to do a little at 20mins to bring a little more focus on flavour (again ~15-20%), the rest WP (so 60-70%).
So I guess conservative might be 20/20/60, adventurous is 15/15/70, or for craziness 15/85.

Is that where you're heading as well?

PS: when in doubt with hops, MOAR!!

 

[Midnight Brew]

@ Cam, Beavertown Neck-Oil uses [SIZE=12pt]Mosaic, Amarillo, Galaxy, Vic Secret as Dry Hopping so I'm hearing you, re - Vic Secret as a dry hop. It might pay to carefully transfer the (60ltrs) beer when it has a couple of points to go into 3 kegs, do three different dry-hop additions, that way I could do my Nelson Sauvin/Mosaic Dry-hop and a Chinook/Vic Secret and maybe an Amarillo/Citra or something keeping Galaxy in the kettle. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]so maybe I'll throw it in with 5 to go, then WP and let stand for 20 starting at 99C (probably not getting under 85C). I reckon if I punch the numbers into the software as a 15min boil and run with those amounts to get 80% total IBU it will be close.[/SIZE]

With that volume, I wouldn't hesitate to turn it into three different beers, either through yeast or dry hopping, not both.

So are you now chilling with the 60L?

In regards to temperature, Ive found at 50L then whirl-pooling for 20 minutes, the temp only drops to 95C. So you're still drawing off some bitterness of the WP + however long it takes to drop below 85C (as the really good graph I can't find from that really good study).

When cube hopping, if the wort enters at 95C, I ESTIMATE that it takes 15-20 mins to drop below 85C and all the aroma is locked into that cube. These are of course estimations not backed by any testing/science, only my my tastebuds (which tend to prefer yeast driven and malt driven beers).

Taking away from that, as log as you can get into the ball park for your bitterness, either will produce a good result but you may favour one more then the other. All comes down to trial, tasting, recording, retrying, comparing.