Herms/rims Systems $$$$

[Thirsty Boy]

much prettier than mine - I use a PID with a K type thermocouple sensor, I ripped it out of the little stainless probe thing it came with because the response time to change was too slow, now its just the tiny little sensor bead itself. That just gets pushed under an inch of vinyl hose thats around the copper of my wort return manifold, then a bit of foam matting is hoseclamped around the outside so it reads the copper temp not the ambient. That way it is measuring the wort temp about 6 inches from where it actually meets the mash.

It consistently reads 1 degree cooler than the returning wort temp (measured with my good thermo) so I just calibrate the PID up by a degree and it all matches nicely.

When I swap to RIMS, I will put the temp sensor into the RIMS chamber itself, that way if I am stupid enough to leave the element on when the pump isn't circulating, rather than the sensor saying "cold, switch element on" it will quickly register hot and turn it off, saving me the expense and danger of blowing the whole thing up.

 

[gibbocore]

Righto fellas, i mustr say i am loving this wealth of information.

I have just a few more questions before my first drawing gets done.

Elements and HLT's.
I'm thinking of using my 40L Brew pot as my HLT and installing an element. The most sparge water it will hold should be around the 30L mark for a double batch. Will this take too long to heat? Or will a 3600w element take care of the job nicely?

I plan on having switchable probes so when the mash & mashout steps are complete, i can switch over to another probe in the HLT and have the mashmaster heat the water up to sparge temp and pump that water out into the MLT.

Also i'd like to open the can of worms on Elements in Kettles. I like the idea of it. Do i run scorching problems, over caramalizaion? How fast can i get 45L of 75 degree wort to the boil? Does anyone find it interferes with whirpooling etc?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Screwtop]

Hey Screwtop, thats some neat looking work there. Do you have any other pics of your entire brewery?

Hoses in place


These pics are over 12 months old and some mods have been made since then. Have about 100mm of flying lead now on the MM Probes and use a polarised connector to attach the lead from the Mashmaster. Easier for moving around and cleaning, the connectors are sealed at the cable entry points. I swap the cable from the MLT return probe to the Kettle return probe to monitor the temp of the returning wort during whirlpooling (via the plate chiller).

Screwy

 

[justsomeguy]

Hey gibbocore,

I'm running a fully electric system and may be able to answer a few of your questions.

Righto fellas, i mustr say i am loving this wealth of information.

I have just a few more questions before my first drawing gets done.

Elements and HLT's.
I'm thinking of using my 40L Brew pot as my HLT and installing an element. The most sparge water it will hold should be around the 30L mark for a double batch. Will this take too long to heat? Or will a 3600w element take care of the job nicely?

I think you will need three separate vessels if you want to do the traditional brew thing, not BIAB.
When sparging you're going to need somewhere for the wort to go to. If your kettle has your sparge water in it then where does the wort go ?

I'm normally doing single batches and budget around 35 litres of water to be heated. I get the strike water up to temp in the kettle then dump it in the mash tun. While the mash is going I heat up the sparge water in the kettle then transfer it to the HLT and keep it warm there.

I run 1800 watt and 2400 watt elements in the kettle and a 1800 watt element in the HLT. A 1800 watt element will take a little over an hour to get 30 litres to the boil, if you keep it out of the wind and insulate it.

I plan on having switchable probes so when the mash & mashout steps are complete, i can switch over to another probe in the HLT and have the mashmaster heat the water up to sparge temp and pump that water out into the MLT.

You will want the HLT water up to temperature when the mash is complete, not after as it could take a while to get the sparge water up to temp. If you are going to run a HREMS or RIMS system then use the mashmaster, or something like it, on the mash. Meanwhile get the HLT heating. At around 15 minutes before the end of the mash switch the mashmaster over to the HLT and use it there to keep the HLT at the required sparge temp. Or run two mashmasters 1 for the mash and the other for the HLT. Much easier.

Also i'd like to open the can of worms on Elements in Kettles. I like the idea of it. Do i run scorching problems, over caramalizaion? How fast can i get 45L of 75 degree wort to the boil? Does anyone find it interferes with whirpooling etc?

Thanks in advance.

I've not had any scorching problems with my system. The time to get 45 litres to the boil is dependent upon two main factors, the wattage of the elements and the use, or not, of insulation on the kettle.

Higher wattage elements = faster to the boil
Do you have the wiring to handle really big elements though, that is the important question.

Insulation on the kettle reduces heat loss. You can insulate an electric system without the fear of burning it if you had used an gas-fired system.

I've had no problems whirlpooling with electric elements in the kettle.


Crap what a long response
gary

 

[gibbocore]

Cheers for that.

I think i'll be going electric as it will keep the system a bit more automated (for me). So i'm pretty happy to hear the elements are working out, means i dont need to weld any burner manifolds etc.

I should elaborate on the proceedure i'm planning on.

Heat strike water in sperate pot on stove (19l jobbie), pour into MT.
Fill my HLT with my sparge water, my HLT will also hvae the heat exchanger in it with prolly a 2600w element. When i work my system out and heat loss equations etc i should be able to heat strike water and heat sparge water to recirc temp. Add sparge water to MLT and add grist, then once the temp has settled, start the recirc at whatever preset using mashmaster with the probe switched to MLT return. 15 or so minutes towards the end of the mash, i can stop the recirc, switch the mashmaster probe over to the HLT and heat to sparging temp, once mash is finished, i should have gained around 15 degrees, and can recirc at said temp for mashout, or i can just do a drawnout step up mashout, depending on how long it takes in testing. Then i pump wort out of MLT into the kettle, then i pump sparge water from the HLT into MLT and batch sparge (until i get two pumps). Settle, a few recircs through the dry HLT to achieve clarity, then pump into kettle. Obviously i'll have to ensure the HLT element is switched off and the temp loss should be negelgable.

Thoughts?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

If you are going to have your heat-ex coil in your HLT - you will be heating a very large amount of water, so your temperature changes will be quite slow and your system will have a bit of inertia to it. Over shooting will be easy, step mashing will take a long time between steps.

For that design, I would actually place your temperature sensor in your HLT all the time. You will need to do a little experimenting to establish the relationship between the temperature in the HLT and the temperature of your returning wort, but at a given flow rate, you should be able to get it nice and dialed in. This way, you wont be in danger of the HLT driving too high. You might also benefit from an agitator of some sort in the HLT to make sure the temperature doesn't stratify and what you measure at the probe is the uniform temp of the whole tank. A little pump or just a stirrer on a small 12V motor would do it easily. Remember to put the coil as low down in the tank as possible, so if you are using less sparge water you don't lose heat-ex efficiency because the coil is not completely submerged.

The way I would do it is - The drawn out step up. Just set the temp for your HLT to mashout temp + delta T between HLT and returning wort. The whole kit and kaboodle will raise itself up to mashout temps and the HLT will already be at or above sparge temp. If above it can be cooled down with a little cold water.

That way you don't have to have 2 temp probes, or 2 temp controllers, and there is a lot less pumping from place to place. Oh, and for time saving... you can fill your mashtun with your strike water, and your HLT/Heat-ex with your sparge water, all cold, all the night before. Prime your pump and get everything set-up, put it on a timer and go to bed. By the time you go into your brewery the next morning, the HLT has heated up, the pump has been re-circulating the strike water through the hot HLT, so its up to temp as well and all you have to do is pour in the grain and go have breakfast.

You can work out your sparge routine as you go, for worts under 1.060 I just dump all my sparge water into the MT at once and do a single draining after recirculating to clarity. You lose a few points of efficiency over a two or three drainings technique, but you save a bunch of time and effort. Around 75% efficiency for me, it drops on bigger beers and I revert to a double drain sparge for over 1.060.

Anyway, your sparge technique isn't set in stone and you can refine as you go. Much easier to change than HERMS design.

More to think about

Thirsty

 

[QldKev]

I have a HERMS system and if you do a search you will find pictures of my heat-exchanger.

I believe there is a cream to cure herms

I think Henno mentioned a home remedy? :icon_drool2:

QldKev

 

[InCider]

I believe there is a cream to cure herms
I think Henno mentioned a home remedy? :icon_drool2:

QldKev

Rims gave Henno Herms :lol:

 

[Batz]

Rims gave Henno Herms :lol:

It had to be said :lol:

Batz

 

[gibbocore]

If you are going to have your heat-ex coil in your HLT - you will be heating a very large amount of water, so your temperature changes will be quite slow and your system will have a bit of inertia to it. Over shooting will be easy, step mashing will take a long time between steps.

For that design, I would actually place your temperature sensor in your HLT all the time. You will need to do a little experimenting to establish the relationship between the temperature in the HLT and the temperature of your returning wort, but at a given flow rate, you should be able to get it nice and dialed in. This way, you wont be in danger of the HLT driving too high. You might also benefit from an agitator of some sort in the HLT to make sure the temperature doesn't stratify and what you measure at the probe is the uniform temp of the whole tank. A little pump or just a stirrer on a small 12V motor would do it easily. Remember to put the coil as low down in the tank as possible, so if you are using less sparge water you don't lose heat-ex efficiency because the coil is not completely submerged.

The way I would do it is - The drawn out step up. Just set the temp for your HLT to mashout temp + delta T between HLT and returning wort. The whole kit and kaboodle will raise itself up to mashout temps and the HLT will already be at or above sparge temp. If above it can be cooled down with a little cold water.

That way you don't have to have 2 temp probes, or 2 temp controllers, and there is a lot less pumping from place to place. Oh, and for time saving... you can fill your mashtun with your strike water, and your HLT/Heat-ex with your sparge water, all cold, all the night before. Prime your pump and get everything set-up, put it on a timer and go to bed. By the time you go into your brewery the next morning, the HLT has heated up, the pump has been re-circulating the strike water through the hot HLT, so its up to temp as well and all you have to do is pour in the grain and go have breakfast.

You can work out your sparge routine as you go, for worts under 1.060 I just dump all my sparge water into the MT at once and do a single draining after recirculating to clarity. You lose a few points of efficiency over a two or three drainings technique, but you save a bunch of time and effort. Around 75% efficiency for me, it drops on bigger beers and I revert to a double drain sparge for over 1.060.

Anyway, your sparge technique isn't set in stone and you can refine as you go. Much easier to change than HERMS design.

More to think about

Thirsty

Hi, Thanks for that!
I'll def be batch sprging for now and using HLT water. My wort will already be in the kettle by the time i choose to sparge. For the HERMS i'm thinking about using a long stile heat element 2.6kv and having the heat ex coil horizontal, nice and low in the kettle with the element in the middle of the coil (hard to explain) so that direct heat is always applied to the wort but not overheating as the probe will be in the return manifold. this way, no wort will ever exceed the desired temp. Then when it comes time to sparge, 15 mins beforethe ned of the mash i can heat the sparge water during the mashout cycle and after i have pumped all wort into the kettle i cxan then pump my sparge water outof the HLT into the MT and stir. start heating the kettle, pump the second runnings into the kettle, making sure i've turned off the valvle at the kettle so as not getting any backflow. Does this sound right? My main concern is getting a responsive temp change and trying to keep it to three vessels?

 

[bonj]

I think you're over analysing it. The extra space a small 10L HERMS/RIMS chamber takes up seems well worth not having to mess around pumping to the kettle and back. Not to mention the volume of mash liquor that you'll need in the kettle at all times, just to keep the heating elements submerged... that will translate to longer heating times for each step. A smaller separate unit will take less time to heat to each step temperature, and take much less mash liquor out of the mash.

 

[Doogiechap]

I think you're over analysing it. The extra space a small 10L HERMS/RIMS chamber takes up seems well worth not having to mess around pumping to the kettle and back. Not to mention the volume of mash liquor that you'll need in the kettle at all times, just to keep the heating elements submerged... that will translate to longer heating times for each step. A smaller separate unit will take less time to heat to each step temperature, and take much less mash liquor out of the mash.

+1

I have a separate HERMS vessel and love the independence of the separate HLT. I started out with it being all together but it was frustrating having your HLT tied in to your desired Mash temps and not anything else. I have my temp control for my system in my heat exchanger like Thirsty suggested as a possibility. I have a cheap thermo on the output to my sparge to monitor output temps and I find I can easily track my mash temps via this method with good stability. That said I will be toying with probe placement to see how different the control is when based on the heat exchanger output.
So many options
Cheers
Doug

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Hi, Thanks for that!
I'll def be batch sprging for now and using HLT water. My wort will already be in the kettle by the time i choose to sparge. For the HERMS i'm thinking about using a long stile heat element 2.6kv and having the heat ex coil horizontal, nice and low in the kettle with the element in the middle of the coil (hard to explain) so that direct heat is always applied to the wort but not overheating as the probe will be in the return manifold. this way, no wort will ever exceed the desired temp. Then when it comes time to sparge, 15 mins beforethe ned of the mash i can heat the sparge water during the mashout cycle and after i have pumped all wort into the kettle i cxan then pump my sparge water outof the HLT into the MT and stir. start heating the kettle, pump the second runnings into the kettle, making sure i've turned off the valvle at the kettle so as not getting any backflow. Does this sound right? My main concern is getting a responsive temp change and trying to keep it to three vessels?

The way you are planning your coil, thats just the way I have mine. Although mine is in a separate vessel. I had my coil in the HLT at one stage, and the probe on the return manifold, and it can and will over heat.

The mashmaster temp controller is only a set point controller, not a PID, it doesn't have inbuilt ability to damp the system to prevent overshoot. Thik about it. If your setpoint is a 76 mash out, your wort is coming in at say 67 ... the controller is going to have to heat the HLT up to quite a bit more than 76 in order for the wort to be exiting the coil at 76, and it will only turn off when the first bit of wort comes out at that temp. Then when the next litre of water goes through the coil, its already a bit warmer than the previous litre... and it exits at higher than 76 and the next is even higher. With a set point controller, a large volume of water and the sensor on the manifold, its almost inevitable that you will overshoot your temps.

Sensor in the HLT - and the problem of driving the HLT too hot goes away, but then you have to be careful with your flow rates to make sure the difference between HLT set temp and your wort temp remains constant. A simple thermometer on the wort return allows you to monitor that.

A separate smaller HERMS vessel doesn't eliminate the problem, but it reduces it significantly, maybe enough to put the temp probe on the manifold. The volume of the mash being higher than the volume of water in the heat-ex means that it will suck excess heat out of the heat-ex without changing temp too much. Add a PID instead of a setpoint controller - and you can get it so that the system anticipates the overshoot and creeps up on your target temp, rather than going full blast till it gets there then missing the turn off.

I have the smaller chamber and the PID... and the mash temp still occasionally still overshoots by a degree or so, the PID settles it down in a few minutes, but its not ideal. Thats why I am looking to go to a RIMS - it has the smallest possible volume to be heated at any given point, and its ability to react to higher than desirable temp is instant. But RIMS have their own issues to deal with.

They'll all work OK, its just where and when you want to apply your effort to it. I don't want to have to watch the damn thing - If you dont mind having to keep an eye on it and deal with the overshoots or whatever, then you can do almost anything you want.

Thirsty

 

[gibbocore]

ahhh, this is starting to make a lot more sense. So the PID can learn the temp heating rates etc and will turn off or dampen before it over heats? Is it then just a matter of tweaking what my temp relationships are between heat ex and mash return?

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Yeah, a PID can smooth the whole thing out and make life easier by reducing the need to worry about sensor placement or the relationship between tun temperature and output temp - but it still has its quirks, and its probably more complex than you need to go. Lots of people seem to be making perfectly workable systems with set-point controllers. I just freak out about not being degree perfect with my temps and have been on a constant improvement quest since I decided to change from a manual to a controlled HERMS system.

Thats the other option I suppose that no one has talked too much about - manual control.

I used to just control the temp by running the HLT at sparge temperatures all the time, and just switching on the pump when I wanted to re-circulate for a temperature adjustment. Pump on - then constant stirring of the tun and a hand held thermometer - at the right temperature, pump off. Essentially just as though I were adding heat via a burner, but with a heat-ex instead. That worked for ages and ages, but I got sick of stirring and watching. I wanted it automatic. So I bought some PIDs off e-bay and used them to create a rod for my own back.

To be perfectly honest, if I were starting brewing all over again - I'd give the pumps and coils and manifolds and false bottoms all a bloody miss and just do it BiaB. Still haven't found a reason why every sort of beer cant be brewed and brewed well BiaB. But, I love my ******* leaky cantankerous overly complex brewery, so I guess I'm sticking with it. If the house burns down and it all needs to be replaced though.......

 

[newguy]

I haven't seen this thread until now.

Total cost of my HERMS.....

2 x 64 qt aluminum pots. One is my hot liquor tank (HLT) and the other is my mash tun. I think they were ~$90 each.
Addition to HLT: 1 x 1500W hot water tank electric element. Somewhere around $20.
1 x small electric motor. ~$3 from a salvage store. I rigged it up to turn a coat hanger which stirs the water. The motor itself is driven by a light dimmer circuit. That cost ~$10.
Addition to Mash Tun: False bottom kit from a homebrew store. It comes with a ~10" diameter perforated SS false bottom, and all the necessary fittings, elbows, etc. It also included a ball valve. I think that was ~$30.

1 x 6 or 7l enameled steel pot. Free. Old pot that my mom had given me many years ago. The wife didn't like it for cooking (it looked grungy) so it became my heat exchanger.
Additions to HE: 1 x 1500W hot water tank electric element. Somewhere around $20. I had to carefully bend the element over so that it would remain completely submerged in the small HE. No cost, just time.
1 x 25' length of 3/8" ID copper tubing. I think this originally cost me ~$35, but I bought it many, many years ago. It was originally my immersion chiller, but it is now my HE coil.

1 x march pump. Cost ~$250.

1 x control unit. Home made (I'm an electrical engineer). Cost ~$100, but I had almost all of the parts laying around gathering dust. Quite a few hours went into writing the code for the controller. You can buy commercial PID units on ebay for a lot less.

Insulation for all containers: ~$40 for a hot water tank insulation kit. It had enough insulation to cover all vessels, tops, bottoms and sides.

Tubing, fittings, valves, hose clamps, etc: ~$100 or so. This cost also includes foam pipe insulation for the hoses.

Total cost ~$788.

Some other points:

HERMS vs. RIMS: A HERMS is slower than a RIMS because the wort doesn't come into direct contact with the heating element. However, with a RIMS there is always a danger of scorching the wort. You also have to be very careful about husks never being allowed into your heating chamber because they can lodge, which catches more husks, and it becomes a vicious circle. If those husks ever start to scorch, your beer suddenly becomes a rauchbier.

PID control: A properly tuned PID controller will change your wort temperature the fastest (when going for the next set temperature) without any overshoot. A commercial PID unit will have a learn function. You simply prime your system with a typical amount of water, punch in a set temperature, and the unit then does its thing. It applies heat and measures how long it took for the temperature to start to change, and also how much it finally ended up changing given a known (set) amount of heat. From these measurements, and others, it can tune itself fairly accurately. Don't ever try to let the controller learn the response on a real batch of beer unless you're willing to tolerate some wild temperature swings in your mash. One other thing: put the PID unit's temperature sensor in the mash, not on the outflow of the heating chamber (RIMS) or HE (HERMS). I have several sensors on my system, and the sensor inside the mash lags the output of the HE by a lot. I use the mash sensor as the input (drive) signal for my system because of this.

Hard piping vs. reinforced vinyl hoses: Go with vinyl as you can easily tear down the system for cleaning. You can also see what is inside the hoses and can replace as necessary with minimal cost.

Can't think of anything else right now. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[the_fuzz]

I haven't seen this thread until now.

Total cost of my HERMS.....

2 x 64 qt aluminum pots. One is my hot liquor tank (HLT) and the other is my mash tun. I think they were ~$90 each.
Addition to HLT: 1 x 1500W hot water tank electric element. Somewhere around $20.
1 x small electric motor. ~$3 from a salvage store. I rigged it up to turn a coat hanger which stirs the water. The motor itself is driven by a light dimmer circuit. That cost ~$10.
Addition to Mash Tun: False bottom kit from a homebrew store. It comes with a ~10" diameter perforated SS false bottom, and all the necessary fittings, elbows, etc. It also included a ball valve. I think that was ~$30.

1 x 6 or 7l enameled steel pot. Free. Old pot that my mom had given me many years ago. The wife didn't like it for cooking (it looked grungy) so it became my heat exchanger.
Additions to HE: 1 x 1500W hot water tank electric element. Somewhere around $20. I had to carefully bend the element over so that it would remain completely submerged in the small HE. No cost, just time.
1 x 25' length of 3/8" ID copper tubing. I think this originally cost me ~$35, but I bought it many, many years ago. It was originally my immersion chiller, but it is now my HE coil.

1 x march pump. Cost ~$250.

1 x control unit. Home made (I'm an electrical engineer). Cost ~$100, but I had almost all of the parts laying around gathering dust. Quite a few hours went into writing the code for the controller. You can buy commercial PID units on ebay for a lot less.

Insulation for all containers: ~$40 for a hot water tank insulation kit. It had enough insulation to cover all vessels, tops, bottoms and sides.

Tubing, fittings, valves, hose clamps, etc: ~$100 or so. This cost also includes foam pipe insulation for the hoses.

Total cost ~$788.

Some other points:

HERMS vs. RIMS: A HERMS is slower than a RIMS because the wort doesn't come into direct contact with the heating element. However, with a RIMS there is always a danger of scorching the wort. You also have to be very careful about husks never being allowed into your heating chamber because they can lodge, which catches more husks, and it becomes a vicious circle. If those husks ever start to scorch, your beer suddenly becomes a rauchbier.

PID control: A properly tuned PID controller will change your wort temperature the fastest (when going for the next set temperature) without any overshoot. A commercial PID unit will have a learn function. You simply prime your system with a typical amount of water, punch in a set temperature, and the unit then does its thing. It applies heat and measures how long it took for the temperature to start to change, and also how much it finally ended up changing given a known (set) amount of heat. From these measurements, and others, it can tune itself fairly accurately. Don't ever try to let the controller learn the response on a real batch of beer unless you're willing to tolerate some wild temperature swings in your mash. One other thing: put the PID unit's temperature sensor in the mash, not on the outflow of the heating chamber (RIMS) or HE (HERMS). I have several sensors on my system, and the sensor inside the mash lags the output of the HE by a lot. I use the mash sensor as the input (drive) signal for my system because of this.

Hard piping vs. reinforced vinyl hoses: Go with vinyl as you can easily tear down the system for cleaning. You can also see what is inside the hoses and can replace as necessary with minimal cost.

Can't think of anything else right now. Let me know if you have any questions.

Great post mate,

Now, I'm off to buy a PID from ebay

 

[gibbocore]

I haven't seen this thread until now.

Total cost of my HERMS.....

2 x 64 qt aluminum pots. One is my hot liquor tank (HLT) and the other is my mash tun. I think they were ~$90 each.
Addition to HLT: 1 x 1500W hot water tank electric element. Somewhere around $20.
1 x small electric motor. ~$3 from a salvage store. I rigged it up to turn a coat hanger which stirs the water. The motor itself is driven by a light dimmer circuit. That cost ~$10.
Addition to Mash Tun: False bottom kit from a homebrew store. It comes with a ~10" diameter perforated SS false bottom, and all the necessary fittings, elbows, etc. It also included a ball valve. I think that was ~$30.

1 x 6 or 7l enameled steel pot. Free. Old pot that my mom had given me many years ago. The wife didn't like it for cooking (it looked grungy) so it became my heat exchanger.
Additions to HE: 1 x 1500W hot water tank electric element. Somewhere around $20. I had to carefully bend the element over so that it would remain completely submerged in the small HE. No cost, just time.
1 x 25' length of 3/8" ID copper tubing. I think this originally cost me ~$35, but I bought it many, many years ago. It was originally my immersion chiller, but it is now my HE coil.

1 x march pump. Cost ~$250.

1 x control unit. Home made (I'm an electrical engineer). Cost ~$100, but I had almost all of the parts laying around gathering dust. Quite a few hours went into writing the code for the controller. You can buy commercial PID units on ebay for a lot less.

Insulation for all containers: ~$40 for a hot water tank insulation kit. It had enough insulation to cover all vessels, tops, bottoms and sides.

Tubing, fittings, valves, hose clamps, etc: ~$100 or so. This cost also includes foam pipe insulation for the hoses.

Total cost ~$788.

Some other points:

HERMS vs. RIMS: A HERMS is slower than a RIMS because the wort doesn't come into direct contact with the heating element. However, with a RIMS there is always a danger of scorching the wort. You also have to be very careful about husks never being allowed into your heating chamber because they can lodge, which catches more husks, and it becomes a vicious circle. If those husks ever start to scorch, your beer suddenly becomes a rauchbier.

PID control: A properly tuned PID controller will change your wort temperature the fastest (when going for the next set temperature) without any overshoot. A commercial PID unit will have a learn function. You simply prime your system with a typical amount of water, punch in a set temperature, and the unit then does its thing. It applies heat and measures how long it took for the temperature to start to change, and also how much it finally ended up changing given a known (set) amount of heat. From these measurements, and others, it can tune itself fairly accurately. Don't ever try to let the controller learn the response on a real batch of beer unless you're willing to tolerate some wild temperature swings in your mash. One other thing: put the PID unit's temperature sensor in the mash, not on the outflow of the heating chamber (RIMS) or HE (HERMS). I have several sensors on my system, and the sensor inside the mash lags the output of the HE by a lot. I use the mash sensor as the input (drive) signal for my system because of this.

Hard piping vs. reinforced vinyl hoses: Go with vinyl as you can easily tear down the system for cleaning. You can also see what is inside the hoses and can replace as necessary with minimal cost.

Can't think of anything else right now. Let me know if you have any questions.

Cheers for the post mate!

I have a question though. By not havingthe PID probe in the HE return, doent i run the risk of the wort get to hot, as the HE attempts to get the mash to the desired temp, dont i run the risk of denaturing enzymes in the wort? Or can i use multiple probes with the PID one for the desired mash temp and a precautionary probe in the HE telling it to not heat above a certain temp? Once i know where my probes are going to go i can start buying and designing.

Thanks in advance.

 

[newguy]

Cheers for the post mate!

I have a question though. By not havingthe PID probe in the HE return, doent i run the risk of the wort get to hot, as the HE attempts to get the mash to the desired temp, dont i run the risk of denaturing enzymes in the wort? Or can i use multiple probes with the PID one for the desired mash temp and a precautionary probe in the HE telling it to not heat above a certain temp? Once i know where my probes are going to go i can start buying and designing.

Thanks in advance.

I have a probe inside the heat exchanger itself, mainly for curiosity, not for control. What I've found is that the HE itself RARELY gets more than 2 or 3C (5F) above the mash when ramping the temperature of the mash. I've done something like 40 or so batches on my HERMS out of the 165 I've ever brewed. The only time my HE got way, way above the mash was when I brewed a CAP with a lot of corn and my mash turned to pudding. The flow basically stopped altogether and that's when things went to hell. Don't worry - put the probe in the mash tun.

 

[gibbocore]

Wicked, cheers.

Now to find myself a HE vessel. What about like one of those 5L mini Kegs?