Heat pump water heater rebates for Victorians

[James Pipe]

Hello Homebrewers!

I had been told a heat pump hot water system is the way to go as the Victorian government is offering rebates, and it will reduce water heating cost by over 60 percent, and it is a climate-friendly alternative.

Does anyone know how good such water systems are?

 

[Dave70]

As a former plumer, and after getting about seventy five thousand phone calls from Indian chaps over the last year or so I took a closer look.
On the face of it it looks all beer and skittles. But as always, 'it depends'.

For starters, they take way longer to reheat than standard electric / gas storage heaters. So if the kids tap out a 250L tank HW at say 6.30, you'll likely be waiting to about 11 pm for a hot shower. No such thing as a free lunch. I'd say the claims surrounding efficiency also assume you doing everything else like installing those horrible water saver shower heads and water saver discs in everything else.

Another strike against for me is the 'no name' brand of the systems. You've just introduced moving parts and complexity where there was none. Good luck chasing a warranty claim when it fails. I'd be seeing if you could choose an established brand if possible, even if it costs more initially.
If it shits itself, then what?

I' dunno. Once the government (any government) gets involved in this kind of thing, its a red flag to me.
Somebody is earning big bucks off all this. Hopefully they vett the installers more thoroughly than they did with the pink batts fiasco.

Besides, if the pricks are so keen of their 'Net zero 2050', why are they disincentivizing 'green energy' by winding back the solar rebates for example?
Suss..

 

[Grok]

Hard to see that a running electric compressor developing high pressure gas and then using a heat exchange is going to be more efficient than an element in direct contact with the water and all the energy used is going straight into the water.
As far as I know, you don't get something for nothing in physics.....or do you?

 

[MHB]

Actually they are something like 3.5 times more efficient than direct heating with an element.
Heat pumps move heat around rather than creating it, so the comparison isn’t a direct one more of an apples and oranges.
Mark

 

[Dave70]

Hard to see that a running electric compressor developing high pressure gas and then using a heat exchange is going to be more efficient than an element in direct contact with the water and all the energy used is going straight into the water.
As far as I know, you don't get something for nothing in physics.....or do you?

Not that I'm aware, contrary to what folk who flog hydrogen generators for your car would have you believe..

It's all about 'work in, work out' kind of thing in terms of efficiency, at least as I understand it. Takes a whole lot less energy to spin up a tiny compressor and fan than to power what is essentially an enormous thermostatically governed kettle.
That said, they're flat out at about 60 deg, so we won't be spinning up power station turbines with them any time soon.

You're still using an 'element', of sorts, only its refrigerant gas in pipes instead of electrical resistance in copper or stainless round bar.

 

[bdkelly.nz]

I've got one and it's only rated at 750w, we don't ever have trouble with it running out of hot water. It's a Stiebel Eltron, German so good quality. I'm in NZ so had to pay full price for it as part of a new build. Our daughter is in Melbourne and recently had to replace her cylinder and was able to get the same brand for the same price as a normal cylinder with the govt subsidy, no brainer. Only downside is they do make a noise about the same as a heatpump, they are the same principal after all, although I'm told the newer models are quieter. They do need to be installed outside or in a well ventilated garage. Ours is also linked to solar so that when the sun is shining the temperature increases in the cylinder.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Hard to see that a running electric compressor developing high pressure gas and then using a heat exchange is going to be more efficient than an element in direct contact with the water and all the energy used is going straight into the water.
As far as I know, you don't get something for nothing in physics.....or do you?

Because unit energy to unit energy is more efficient with a refrigeration cycle. You can actually get higher than 100%!

But of course using green electrons to power your home it’s the most sustainable option.

Boo to all the EV owners who aren’t paying for green electricity, those vehicles are worse than petrol vehicles right now in terms of net CO2 emissions**

** in the coal fired power states.

 

[GregTheBrewer]

Sorry Mate, but your statement contravenes the first law of thermodynamics: Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Higher than 100% efficiency means the system is creating energy. Not physically possible.

 

[Grok]

Well, after burrowing into this website Heat Pump Water Heaters , it appears to me that there are quiet a few variants of these type of systems and "it depends" what your particular circumstances are. I can see that if your system is utilising both sides of heating and cooling aspects of a compressor type system, then energy efficiency is there, but a lot of "it depends" are standing out to me, and the cynic in me is sniffing a broad new sales front to open up via Government lobbying from big biz interests.
Best to do your own homework!

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Sorry Mate, but your statement contravenes the first law of thermodynamics: Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Higher than 100% efficiency means the system is creating energy. Not physically possible.

Have a read of this it will be easier than me typing a response.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance

 

[feralbass]

I just replaced 12 of these in our factory, cost around $44K, rebate, over $42K, out of pocket less than $2K.
If the govt wants to go broke I am happy to help.

 

[Dave70]

I just replaced 12 of these in our factory, cost around $44K, rebate, over $42K, out of pocket less than $2K.
If the govt wants to go broke I am happy to help.

Yeah, but the thing is they don't go broke.
They just pass the bill onto the taxpayer under the guise of some 'green levy' or whatever.
In the current frenzy of universal greenwashing, it's difficult to push back.

'What? You don't support green energy? We're all in this together! We're working toward a greener future! You must be a climate change denier who listens to talkback radio'.
And so on.

 

[Narapoia]

Interesting thread - I've been considering one of these given the subsidies available and given the insane energy price increases that have been foisted on us as of this month (Will probably add 50% to electricity bill, the off peak rates have been increased 60-96% which is when we use most of our electricity).

Going to get solar panels as well - am so pissed off a this price gouge, the criminal mismanagement of this country marches on.

If anyone else has had one installed what has the performance been like (slow to heat etc,) and have you seen a difference in your energy bill?

 

[Dave70]

Interesting thread - I've been considering one of these given the subsidies available and given the insane energy price increases that have been foisted on us as of this month (Will probably add 50% to electricity bill, the off peak rates have been increased 60-96% which is when we use most of our electricity).

Going to get solar panels as well - am so pissed off a this price gouge, the criminal mismanagement of this country marches on.

If anyone else has had one installed what has the performance been like (slow to heat etc,) and have you seen a difference in your energy bill?

For what it's worth, I just shit canned AGL after they simultaneously reduced the feed in tariff and ramped up kwh rate and went with China Light and Power, erm.. I mean, Energy Australia, as both rates were slightly better. 10 kw system.

Seems much like the insurance racket, energy suppliers are moving target when it comes to getting the best deal.

 

[Narapoia]

For what it's worth, I just shit canned AGL after they simultaneously reduced the feed in tariff and ramped up kwh rate and went with China Light and Power, erm.. I mean, Energy Australia, as both rates were slightly better. 10 kw system.

Seems much like the insurance racket, energy suppliers are moving target when it comes to getting the best deal.

Yep AGL were the culprits for me as well. I haven't stayed with an insurance provider longer than a year for our house yet, a couple car insurers have waited till the second renewal to jack up the cost of the policy, while at the same time reducing the amount of cover so you are paying like 40% more than the previous year. Absolute moving target, shop around every time, don't give them a cent more than you have to, such scumbags.

I used one of the comparison sites and Powershop seemed to have the best rates but will do another round once we have the panels in place and will drop AGL ASAP.

ETA: Our house also has a lot of halogen light fittings. We spent about 500 bucks on LED replacements (dimmable ones, expensive, not covered by rebate, sigh) but that alone dropped our power bill on the old cheaper rates by about $100 a quarter - so under 1.5 years you have payback. So - there's also a rebate for this, definitely worth looking into to save energy and money to swap with LEDs - the peak lighting performance is exactly the same as the halogens.

 

[Grmblz]

'What? You don't support green energy? We're all in this together! We're working toward a greener future! You must be a climate change denier who listens to talkback radio'.
And so on.

It would be funny, if it wasn't so tragic.
To say the horse has bolted is something of an understatement, way too little, and way too late.
The roller coaster is already over the top, buckle up folks, it's gonna be a wild ride, and I suspect sooner than most think.

 

[Narapoia]

It would be funny, if it wasn't so tragic.
To say the horse has bolted is something of an understatement, way too little, and way too late.
The roller coaster is already over the top, buckle up folks, it's gonna be a wild ride, and I suspect sooner than most think.

Yeah - I've read some of the stuff from the scientists who have lost the will to sugar coat things. They know why the majority express optimism, to counteract the all too human instinct to just go full steam ahead if there's nothing that can be done. They may well be right, maybe we miss our chance to get through it if we don't do anything at all, but it's hard to see how that happens from here.

 

[ianh]

I have just had one of these installed
https://istore.net.au/istore-270/Set it up to run on off peak tarrif and my solar. So far so good. Can't help with Vic pricing as I am in Tas.

Cheers
Ian

 

[Monero]

I just replaced 12 of these in our factory, cost around $44K, rebate, over $42K, out of pocket less than $2K.
If the govt wants to go broke I am happy to help.

The Government doesn't go broke they just print more money which creates inflation and is a tax on everyone that uses their "Money"

 

[YAPN]

The Government doesn't go broke they just print more money which creates inflation and is a tax on everyone that uses their "Money"

This is what happens most of the time, but it does not have to happen. The gov can create whatever money it wants but unless it spends wisely it might cause inflation.